The Steel Guitar Forum

John Russell wrote: Don't gamble on the amp crapping out. Fender Twins are plentiful and sound great but we all know they're heavy and somewhat high maintenance.

Whats the high maintenance ?

a $10 /12ax7 every year or two ? Plus it may make tube noise but it will NOT crap out...

IF you don't like them because they are heavy thats a different issue. Thats an opinion...

High maintenance is NOT something that belongs in the same sentence with any Fender amp that has had appropriate service done @ a 10 or 15 year interval. I am not talking about the RI series, they come with an entirely different set of maintenance issues from the SF/BF series.

IF we are going to bring a 70's SF Fender amp to a gig which has NOT been maintained over the last 40 years, yeah you can expect issues. But thats not the amps fault.
No different than buying a used car , not performing any service and expecting to drive it across country. Who would do that ?

Tims analogy of a car is somewhat ok, but some old cars have been maintained and drive/perform great, some don't. A 70's Twin, if we purchase it in the $500-$600 range (40 year old amp ) and expect it to go another 15 + years without bringing it to an efficient state , it won't...but thats not the amps fault.

Gentleman and ladies

common sense prevails...

I just sold my 71 Twin, a reasonable price, under a grand, it will go another 10 or 15 years non stop, as it should. Will a tube go bad ? Probably. So what, carry a spare 6L6 and a spare 12AX7. They don't have to be new tubes, they have to be good tubes.

I thought this discussion started as what kind of maintenance should one expect on amp X. Also, if somebody spends 500 on a used silverface & then pays some significant portion of that for re-capping & tubes, or maybe new speakers, to a tech, they may not see that as expected maintenance. I see it as a good deal over a reissue amp. Reliability is a function of complexity & environment among many things. Heating up components so you can light a cigar on them strikes me as being complex . I think tube amps are quite reliable based on my experience with 3 solid state amps & friends asking me to look at their solid state amp. It's like working on an old VW beetle vs a new VW.

I've had a couple of 40 year old silverfaces, and I wasn't surprised at scratchey pots, failed output transformers, electrolytic power caps which were leaking toxins into my amp, etc. I am an EE, build tube amps, so I like this kind of stuff if the amp doesn't have circuit board(s), ribbon connectors etc. & I can fix it wid my milk money. Any post-70s amp will have circuit boards, so I don't even try to work on these beyond tube or maybe OT replacement.

If you're happy with solid state sound, either pure mosfet analog or digital/analog hybrids like Da Cubes, then you cannot beat weight/cost+watts ratio. There's just no arguing about this. Solid state doesn't have an output transformer since mosfet impedance matches the speakers' & power transformer + filter caps need to produce a fraction of DC voltage compared to a tube amp (~100VDC vs >500VDC).

I like my Quilter amp as much as if not more than my silver face twin, and my twin sounds pretty incredible. For around a grand you could get a Quilter and it will sound great, be easy to carry, and never need tubes. Just saying

E-Caps for a Fender amp are in the neighborhood of $80 for the purchase of just the caps. Tubes, a full new set with 2x 6L6's is in the $70 range, with 4x 6L6's you can expect to pay over $100... I am not talking about premium, wrapped in gold tubes with ribbons around them. A stock set of Sovteks will serve you, me, us, for a long time.

If you can do the work yourself ( experience and safety required) you are looking at about $200 . A quality tech will also look at tube sockets and replace plate/grid resistors which on a 40 year old amp is not a bad thing to replace. This is a ONE time thing, you'll never do it again. A quality tech , (not the guy down the road with a soldering iron) will probable charge $150 to $200 in labor. The parts and labor will bring you a decade or more down the road. Thats 10 or more years with an approx $400 total investment up front. Thats $40/year paid in advance .

Tubes go bad, tubes can and will make noise , but in most scenario's they don't fail and shut you down for the night. Carry a spare 12AX7/6L6 as a safety net.

Oh and this, even SS amps can blow speakers, so leave speakers out of the equation. When SS amps fail, and they do, if you are not fixing it yourself you are a month or more away from back in service. I personally hate working on SS amps , you can't temporarily fix em' with bubble gum...

The only two amps that I have ever had fail on me over the last decade (on a gig) were a Gallien Kruger 350 watt Bass amp (SS) and a MusicMan 120 which is a hybrid, of course it was the SS drivers to the power amp that died not a tube. 4x transistor drivers at about $15 each ( only 1 died but when the chest is open do full surgery) and about 30 days sitting on the bench before returning to duty.

I'm not saying don't get a SS amp, I'm saying don't pass by a really good deal on a SF Twin if it hits you in the head !

Oh yeah, I forgot to say, When the MM was dead and on the bench, the 40 year old Twin came to the gigs !

One thing to keep in mind with old real Fender tube amps ( not to be confused with the abomination that the" reissue " fender amps are ) is that they can be temporarily fixed on stage during the gig by banging on them hard with your hand while yelling your favorite obscenity . It's like having a can of fix-a-flat built in to get you to the end of the gig. It's seems weird but I have used this technique with great success hundreds and hundreds of times.

Another thing is that the visceral experience of playing through a tube amp and a solid state amp is pretty freakin big. It's just not the same.

The Quilter should be very reliable but it is chock full of solid state components and likely lots of thin film resistors and some SMC components that may not withstand 5/10/15/20 years worth of lighting hits, power surges and transients. I have found Fender tube amps to far outlast any solid state amp I've ever owned. They are are certainly quite immune to power surge related failures. It will be 10 years or so from now until we can really know if an amp like the Quilter will be more reliable than a Fender tube amp!

Bob Hoffnar wrote:One thing to keep in mind with old real Fender tube amps ( not to be confused with the abomination that the" reissue " fender amps are ) is that they can be temporarily fixed on stage during the gig by banging on them hard with your hand while yelling your favorite obscenity . It's like having a can of fix-a-flat built in to get you to the end of the gig. It's seems weird but I have used this technique with great success hundreds and hundreds of times.
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That is priceless

It won't take 20 years to tell... a tube amp is not as reliable as a good SS amp. Speakers aside, there is no 'wear item' in a SS amp... tubes are 'wear items', they wear out, they have a limited lifespan. Without periodic maintenance the tube amp will fail long before the SS one. The electrolytic caps in tube amps are under more stress than the ones in SS amps as well.

So if you want an amp that just plays and plays, with no maintenance, go SS. If you want the ultimate possible tone, you'll probably want a tube amp... along with all the fragility and maintenance hassles it brings.

I bought my have a 1972 silverface Twin from a friend in 1973. The only maintenance it needed was an occasional 6L6 until about three years ago. It started acting up then, so I took it to a Fender certified tech. He performed the work Tony described in his post above. In addition, he converted it to adjustable bias and enabled reverb on both channels. The total bill was around $275. I put in a new set of 6L6 power tubes after I got the amp back from the tech. I did that only because I wanted to try a new set of tubes. I still have the other set. Since then, I had a head unit built for it to reduce weight and give me the flexibility of having the head next to me when I play. Now I can choose from the original cabinet with two 12" speakers, or either of a 15" cabinet, or 12" speaker cabinet. Since the head conversion was my option, I have a total of $575 plus the cost of a couple of extra 6L6s in necessary expenses in the amp. That includes the original purchase price. Maybe I've been luckier than most, but solid state components can and will fail, too. I take care of my Twin. When I travel, it rides on the seat, not in the trunk of a car or bed of a pickup truck, but I treat solid state amps the same way. The only amp I've had completely die was a MB200. It's dead with no apparent hope of resurrection. But it only cost $200.

I'm not knocking solid state amps. I have owned several, still have a couple of them, and probably always will. I like one of them in particular a lot, and I do mean a lot. Still, I am admittedly tube biased (pun intended). I prefer the sound of a good tube amp. That's just me. Others prefer solid state. That's what they like, so that's right for them. I've played through a couple of solid state amps that claim to have tubey tone. One of them was a Quilter. I'm not knocking them. I like them very much. The Quilter sounded very good. My ears heard tubey, but still not tubes.

The only real way to find out if you like tube amps is to try one for yourself. I wouldn't let the possibility of blowing a 6L6 or occasional preventive maintenance stop me. It didn't and it won't. I have my eye on another one.

Michael Todd wrote:I thought this discussion started as what kind of maintenance should one expect on amp X. ).

Did, to some extent, turn into "my tube amp can kick your SS amp's ass", or the converse.

But good points were made. Hopefully no one is scared off from considering one or the other by some of the more forceful assertions, as it is simply a matter of personal preference not a good/bad, better/worse dichotomy.

Right on Tony Prior everyone else with negative comments about Fender twins could stand to soak some of this truthful knowledge up !!!

Original poster here. Thanks for all the input from all of you. I gotta say Lane Grays shot out video between an Evans, Session 400 and a Twin would sell me on the Twin. It just sounded sweeter to me. I have had a few offers on different amps and appreciate it. I just haven't made up my mind yet. It's a whole tone vs. weight vs. price thing for me. As for the upkeep, I'm not too worried about that. I

I know no one asked, but it's a Roland Cube 80 XL that's been going out on me. It'll play fine for a couple of minutes, but then all of a sudden no sound comes out. None. Melt it rest a while and it'll run for a few minutes and then..no sound. luckily, there's a good repair place near me and I'll drop it off for an assessment.

I do have two Mackie powered monitors I could use. What do y'all think of using a tube preamp with a powered monitor?

Ha! What Bob Hoffner said! I have banged on tube amps and seen other guys do the same. It works.

Also, Stephen Cowell is so right. There are no threads (as far as I know) that go into minute detail about the maintenance issues of SS amps. You turn the switch, they come on and work. No caps, tubes, bias, cloth wires, etc. Tube amps are 70+ year old technology. I'd love to see a blindfold test with some of you tube amp geeks with a new Fender Mustang amp and a 65 Twin Reverb. Better still, go to one of the steel guitar jamborees in St. Louis, Dallas, etc. and tell me how many pros are playing through Fender Twins. How many touring steel players? It's in the hands and the heart, guys, not the gear.

Justin Emmert wrote: I know no one asked, but it's a Roland Cube 80 XL that's been t on me. It'll play fine for a couple of minutes, then all of a sudden no sound comes out. None.

The major problem I had with an early model cube...was tbe input jacks are very light duty and can become intermittent at the most inconvenient time. ... eg when you plug in for sound check. ..

Also. ... in spite of paying big dollars for awesome sounding heavy duty lifetime warrantee monster cables. ..I had one that was intermittent from the get go. .. and the Wiggle Here Wiggle There test as per the frantic musicians stage rig repair manual was inconclusive. ...hah.

Not to go on and on about this. ... but.... my belief is that you have to be prepared to open amps up. .. know how to not get electrocuted. .diagnose ...remove solder... solder. .. and possibly a rudimentary understanding of electrical schematics. .. you might just get more than you ever want to handle. Ask yourself whether you see technical issues as being fun challenges or off putting frustrations. What is your knowledge level about tubes and tube amp design.

Your amp will go silent and maybe a 12ax7 has failed..maybe a fuse...maybe a bad cable or input jack...maybe on the guitar...a bad switch or cold solder joint...maybe a phase inverter...maybe a rectifier..maybe a power tube...maybe screen resistors......corroded effects loop jacks. ...but how would you know that's what happened?

Brutal honesty. ...your desire to rely on a tech to diagnose and fix your cube... the fact you didn't get the amp corrected after it failed the first time indicates a lack of prepared ness to take on the technical challenges of basic gear no less a tube amp.

My wingmate lost his amp on the first chord of the first song at a corporate gig in a professional entertainment establishment. I heard it go. He turned white and had that panicked look. I said.. 'best guess. . your fuse just blew'. ... it had...and being the prepared and organized guy he always was. ... he had a spare in his gig bag. ..and we were up and going in two minutes.

That is the reality I experienced on the road. As mentioned earlier. ..Ive lost 12ax7s and 6v6s from nothing more than road rattle during travel. You have to be knowledgeable and technically inclined and not even think about a budget to be a tube amp guy.

The really great thing about those Roland Cube amps and other similar amps is that if they crap out you can throw them in the landfill and buy another one. None of that tedious working with your amp over the years getting to know it and tweaking it until it becomes an important part of how you express yourself.

Plus with the new modeling amps you can push the "Make it sound just like I'm expressing myself" button and you've got it all.

My Cube 80 has never failed, hiccuped or ever misbehaved. I don't recall the Cube 60 that I owned before ever failing either. This current one is going on 5 years old and showing some wear but it works every time. Other SS amps I've owned have been very reliable, including Peaveys and a TubeWorks amp that was pretty good as well. I can't say all Roland Cubes are perfect. I'm pretty impressed with Roland/Boss gear. It's a huge load off my mind when gigging. Fender amps I've owned are a different story (see above).

there is never going to be one perfect amp - or a perfect anything for that matter.

An amp is an instrument - like a guitar, which needs strings, you may have to tend to it once in a while.

For my money, I prefer amplifiers that do not get thrown away after 5-10-15 years. An old Twin is something that most competent techs can keep running forever. A roland Cube... good luck finding a tech that can work on that amp beyond the input jack.

Time will tell how these Class D amps hold up. The module I use in my Half and Half has a 3 year warranty. I have designed the amp so that the module can easily be replaced by any tech, or even the owner with just a simple explanation.

If you buy a nice instrument - and the plan is to get the most out of your investment - you may want to spend a little more up front and get something that you can have forever rather than throw money at something that says the word tube on it or is "tube-like".

Solid State amps don't need service or maintenance, and don't fail ??? really ? uhmmm...

Here's the 30 volt LOW DC Power Supply to this beast. I have owned 3 different heads ,each needed the 30V supply rebuilt. E-Caps need replacing regardless of what the DC levels are. The amount of DC voltage for a Solid State amp PS may very well be 10X lower and seem to be LESS stress but the fact of the matter is E-Caps fail regardless of the assumed stress level. And when they do they will take out a couple of power transistors with it. Only a couple if you are lucky. Oh, and in many solid state amps, even todays modern amps, getting to the power supply,well..you gotta dig your way in from China...

There you go, Tony. If the voltage is 10x lower, then the current is 10x higher for the same power/energy. Current raises more heck with electronics than voltage because heat is proportional to current.

For those using a Quilter or MB200, that's a Class D amp, which has very high internal voltages. It's not emitter-base-collector nor gate-body-source and drain.

The old Twin or the like is a paragon of reliability. And it's like an old Ford - lots of guys know how to fix 'em.

Les Cargill wrote:There you go, Tony. If the voltage is 10x lower, then the current is 10x higher for the same power/energy. Current raises more heck with electronics than voltage because heat is proportional to current.

... and what makes the most heat, tubes or transistors?

I prefer tube amps, just don't tell me they're more reliable than solid-state... I know better.

Its pretty rare to see a heat sink on a tube amp. A lot of early SS amps weigh a ton because of the massive heat sinks keeping the mosfets from meltdown on the back. Heat is not the enemy of a tube amp.

In the case of the old Fenders, moisture is the enemy.

A good class D amp design should not need a heat sink or a fan either.

As far as reliability goes, I'll take a solid, well-maintained silverface or earlier Fender to any modern mass-produced PC-board amp I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. I have a pile of amps, and guess what is the only one with a problem right now? My <10 year old Peavey NV 112, which has gone into intermittent craziness. I know I'll be cursing taking that circuit board out, yuck, but I think I've run out of easy things to check. Or maybe start futzing around with an old Vox solid-state amp. They're cool, but good luck, they're a beeyitch to work on.

There's also no point in comparing a classic Peavey Session/LTD or NV 400, 80s Bandit and so on to most any modern mass-produced amp. Those older Peaveys just take a lickin' and keep on ticking, and are really not so bad to work on. But I've had to replace components in them also - electrolytics, power transistors, and more, as Tony suggests. But once I get either one of those or an old Fender in good working order, they generally stay that way for a long time.

Myself, I think silverface Fenders are and have been the biggest bargain in a vintage tube amp for 25 years or more. I'm OK with getting one that needs some basic electronic work as long as it's priced that way and is in good physical shape with its original iron. It ain't that hard to find someone to do good work on old tube Fenders if you can't do it yourself. I also agree with Tim that moisture is the enemy of these old tube amps. You definitely don't want one that has the 'conductive fiberboard' problem, which can happen if they get really drenched or sit around in a humid environment for decades.

On the other hand, I've been drinkin' the "Little Walter 50-watt" kool-aid this week. Pretty durned tootin' nice for steel or guitar. I think one can do pretty much anything from country steel or chickin pickin guitar to jazz to blues to Aerosmith with that thing if you plug in the right guitar - it will rock on demand if you want it to and I wasn't exactly expecting that. Takes pedals really well too. And the head weighs about the same, maybe a little less, than my Princeton Reverb with the stock speaker - the Princeton with the JBL is quite a bit heavier.

Yeah man, those old Fender amps where those power tubes create enough heat to boil peanuts will never last 50 years ! Unlike the GK Bass amp I have which creates no heat and died on the gig ! And that Crown 2000 Power Amp I use for PA where the 20 VDC power supply, just for the rear fan mind you, died. no I'm not fixing it, I am replacing it with a 117 VAC fan , wiring it to the AC line. It would take me 2 hrs to take the PC bd out..and probably 3 to put it back in ! no thanks....

Interesting how times have changed. I remember (geezer talk here) when silverface Fenders were considered second-rate. Blackface Fenders were much more desirable. They were called "pre-CBS" or "pre-BS, take your pick. Then someone discovered that the early silverface amps were similar to the BF versions, now they're considered cool and retro what with the blackface style having been re-issued years ago. So Fender has reissued "silverface" style twins. As we know, older is always better. I guess I'll have to re-issue myself. My fee will have to go up accordingly.

I don't think times have changed all that much with regard to black/silverface amps. Given my druthers, all other things being equal, I'd take an old blackface Fender over a silverface Fender in most cases. But with a roughly 2:1 black/silver price ratio that has pretty much hung in there for at least the last 25 years or so, I think silverfaces are a great bargain and are still cool amps. But yes, I think they are still second-in-line in most cases to blackface for most people, not just geezers.

For me, one exception is the early drip-panel '68/early-'69 silverface amps, which are their own little world. They are a bit different from the blackface amps, but in a very good way, to my tastes. I also pretty much love any black or silverface Champ/VibroChamp/Princeton/Deluxe and even Vibrolux equally, and especially when you consider the price differential. Ideally best before they moved to the dadoed-in MFD baffle, but again, that usually costs a bit more, the market is aware of these kinds of details.

What has changed is that, IMO, an awful lot of current mass-produced amps are, IMO, simply problematic at a lot of levels. Many manufacturers know they're not gonna last. In many cases that I see, the service policy is "Replace under warranty, do not service", which means that when you outlive the warranty, you're on your own to find parts, and I see lots of new electronics stuff just junked when something goes wrong. Most of the cabs I see are just particle board junk, parts are wave-soldered onto thin PC boards with traces that are very difficult to deal with, pots directly soldered to boards, nothing much to even reclaim.

And thus silverface amps that used to be 2nd-tier now look pretty damned good in comparison.

My opinions, of course. If you like this new mass-produced stuff, fine. Some of the smaller, straightforward PC board amps are so simple there's no problem - it's mostly these big things with tons of bells and whistles that I have an issue with. But I'm not trying to talk anybody into or out of anything, just stating what I see from my point of view.