The Steel Guitar Forum

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>Gershwin, Errol Garner, Hoagie Carmichael, AC Jobim, Duke Ellington, Dave Brubeck, Wayne Shorter, Clifford Brown, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Billy Strayhorn Rogers and Hart, Miles, Charlie Parker, Cole Porter... all use Maj7ths very well.
Enough good reasons not to banish the major7 chord</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

David,the movement has ended and the petitions have been torn up. And it will not become illegal to play the 4,6,9 string grip on C6.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 22 July 2003 at 04:21 AM.]</p></FONT>

LOL yes no more movements... and very few from Barry Manilow too lOL.

I was just playing over a Yellowjackets tune in BiaB lots of Maj7, and I was finding E9 pedals B&C were coming up with some interesting passing chord things on it, between the LKL maj7. I could get good licks off the same positions as well as up 2 and up 4 frets.
And C6 was modaling out nicely over it too.

William, Bill Monk, you are right. I didn't mean to sound dogmatic.

A major 7 does indeed contain a minor triad, so I can see why it would have a "minor quality". I just wanted to steer Wayne away from the idea that, say, a C minor and C maj 7 could be substitutable.

That minor quality sets up a C maj7/E minor substitutability (is this a word??).

Jeff, good point. I guess like Leon G. I think of an Aug as a dominant-type chord because the augmented 5th is usually built on a dominant 7th chord--and performs the function of a dominant 7th, i.e., to lead into a chord a fourth above it, as per Leon's post.

But the whole psychological effect of minor chords is fascinating . . . why do humans find them "sad"? Or do you think this differs from culture to culture? Perhaps only we Westerners find minors "sad"?

Indian ragas--more like extended scales, sometimes with differing ascending and descending notes--are linked to emotions, seasons, times of day, even colors. Guess if you grow up hearing them then the associations are built up.

It's good to read your ideas about these topics, and as Bill M and others imply, each set of ears is different; and chords don't occur in isolation--rather, in the context of other chordal movements and melodic lines.

Chris

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now living in the Ocean State ....

"Basic chord sounds" can actually be defined by the 3rd and 7th of a chord- lots of big band arranging is done on that principal. At Berklee they call them "guide tone lines" within a chord progression of Cmaj7 Fmaj7 Bm7 E7 Amaj7 you might have:

E E D D C#
B A A G# G#

each of those is a melody line; stacked on top of each other, they insinuate the harmonic progression (and if you play the root of each underneath you'll have the complete picture). Notice how smooth one note connects to the next intervallically- even though the root motion leaps around, the "inner voices" are smoothly connected.

So technically the notes E and B give you "all you need" for Cmaj7- of course, what Mr. C Dixon means (I think) about having all 4 notes is the dissonance between the C and the B on top- that interval of a major 7. That is the sound of a specific voicing of the chord, but really there are many other voicings available too.

Anyway, the root 3rd and 7th (the strings 4 6 9 on C6 for Fmaj7 in open position, that Jeff refers to above) give you all the "harmonic information" you need for that chord.

Similarly for min 7 - b3 b7
dom 7 - 3 b7

the more extended chords like m7b5 may need an extra note to seperate them from others like m7- but the harmony really does "begin" with the 3rd and 7th.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 22 July 2003 at 06:25 AM.]</p></FONT>

It may have sounded as if I was dogging Bread, Young and Manilow...sorry, I guess I'm just a child of the 70's.
Believe it or not, I actually had my MSA set up as it was built with one specific change.
As many E9 set ups do, I lower my E strings a half step. My guitar can then raise the 8th string back up so if I play 8...6...5...4
I get E...G#...B...Eb, hence a Maj7th chord.

I did that on purpose guys. I admit it. I use it all the time. And it's true, I play and sing "Lookin'For Love" and Mike is right that is a Maj7th. My name is Bill and I use Major 7th chords.
BD
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by BDBassett on 22 July 2003 at 06:46 AM.]</p></FONT>

Hi Bill!

Chris-

Thanks for your response. I think from a functional standpoint you and Leon are right; the diminished is used in more situations than an augmented, which (in my experience anyway) either turns up as a triad or a 7th chord around the V. I don't think I've really thought about this before. That's why I like asking questions

My thinking has probably been conditioned by the fact that I often refer to Ted Greene material when I want to expand my chord horizons on guitar. He classifies chords broadly into three categories (major, minor, dom. 7th,) and loosely includes the dim. and aug. in with the dom. 7th, although he acknowledges those two don't really fit in any family.

Something else that really impressed me is when I found that the four different types of triads represent the four possible ways of stacking major third and minor third intervals:

Major triad = major 3rd + minor 3rd

Minor triad = minor 3rd + major 3rd

Dim. triad = minor 3rd + minor 3rd

Aug. triad = major 3rd + major 3rd

The above scheme seems so logical and complete, that in my own head I'm tending to classify chords with it somewhat in mind. If someone were to ask me about different chord types, I'd probably start from this structurally scientific look at triads, then proceed into functional considerations like why the dom. 7th family is so central and important.

I think your perspective and Leon's is very valid, and would certainly tell players what they needed to know as far as application.

<SMALL>But the whole psychological effect of minor chords is fascinating . . . why do humans find them "sad"? Or do you think this differs from culture to culture? Perhaps only we Westerners find minors "sad"? </SMALL>

I'm sure people have done a lot more thought on this than I, unfortunately I don't remeber reading anything scholarly on the question. My off-the-top reaction is that it has to do with the fact that the minor third interval occupies a more distant (and therefore dissonant) relationship to the root note in the overtone series. Minor chords are usually simple enough that this relationship remains highlighted.

I think the basic emotional reaction to major and minor is probably universal, and has a scientific basis, maybe including what I said above. Perhaps someone else has more of a background on the subject and will chime in.

Thanks for asking and contributing, Chris.

<SMALL>Whats the difference between a 7th and a maj7th? And, what can it do for me?</SMALL>

..you can use it to sound like George Harrison, the best known example being the walkdown I - Imaj7 - Idom7 - IV which coincides with the lyrics "Something in the way she moves attracts me like no other lover" from his classic song "Something" off the Abbey Road album. The major 7 chord is used in other places throughout that song, too, always for a walkdown..

..if it's OK for George Harrison to use, it's OK for me to use..<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 22 July 2003 at 12:57 PM.]</p></FONT>

the Dom7 chord got thousands into playin' Blues, Country and Rock and Roll
The Maj7 is another story. it's an invitation to Jazz and much more as well
Yep,Those who lived and played in the 30s and 40s were Lucky cause they got to play the Maj7 from the git
in George Harrison's "while my guitar gently weeps" the Maj7 can also be found along the same line as Pat B mentions above.
the tune starts off in A- and then changes to A:
I - Imaj7 - VI-(minor) - IV/II-7 - V11
here's a common chart w: some maj7s:
/Cmaj7/C#°/D-7/G11/ repeat the 4 bars
/Fmaj7/E-7/D-7/Cmaj7/
Fmaj7/E-7/F-7/G11/G11/G11/G11/Cmaj7/
James Taylor often uses the Imaj7 followed by a V11 (repeat both)
Yes there is a relation between Maj7 and minor
a Gmaj7 and an E-6 are pretty much alike
other chords related to the maj7:
6/9 - maj9 -
btw: Brazilian Musik is full of maj7s and much more too
Most things in Life comes in Twos
Major / Minor thirds
so it is w: Sevenths
the Yin and the Yang
Have both, Will travel

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Steel what?


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 23 July 2003 at 10:09 AM.]</p></FONT>

"I think the basic emotional reaction to major and minor is probably universal, and has a scientific basis, maybe including what I said above. Perhaps someone else has more of a background on the subject and will chime in."

In my equally amateur opinion , I disagree. I'd bet that the emotions conjured by different chords, or for that matter different types of music, are an entirely cultural and experiential phenomenon. Much Eastern music sounds minor to me, often relying on minor 3rds, minor 2nds, or 'scales' that do not use our tempered system at all. Yet, much of it is played as a means of rejoicing and celebrating the human spirit, just as a John Phillips Sousa march is intended.

Admittedly, though, I have trouble imagining the reverse- 'major'-sounding music used for a melancholy effect. But I bet it exists.

Since we're showcasing composers/songwriters who have used Maj7 chords extensively, let's not forget about Jimmy Webb, IMHO one of the best Pop songwriters of our time. His "hooks" almost always involve either progressing to or from a Maj7.

<SMALL>I'd bet that the emotions conjured by different chords, or for that matter different types of music, are an entirely cultural and experiential phenomenon. Much Eastern music sounds minor to me, often relying on minor 3rds, minor 2nds, or 'scales' that do not use our tempered system at all. Yet, much of it is played as a means of rejoicing and celebrating the human spirit, just as a John Phillips Sousa march is intended. </SMALL>

In the raga system of India they hold the belief that each parent scale carries with it certain musical characteristics and expressive possibilities. They believe these objective sound qualities are available to all who master them. If you really wanted to find out what they think about this subject, the information's there.

I'm not that up on Indian music, but I've listened and read about it a certain amount, and even talked once to a young musician from the Karnatic (southern) school. It seems to me they have a much more evolved system of thought on this subject of objective musical effect than we do.

Their system of scales (one source says there are 72, not sure which Indian school this refers to) also includes our diatonic modal system, or something very similar. The Karnatic school has more individual notes than the northern, with over 40. (The northern has around 24.)

Not having planned harmony as we do, (hence no actual major and minor chords), Indian music has instead evolved melody that is far more subtle. After hearing the young Karnatic musician perform, I really felt, with my Western 12-tone sensibility, "square."

In order to really judge how the Indian tradition views the major-minor question, you'd have to include an evaluation of how they use the scales that are analogous, or roughly so, to our major. If they have something truly analogous to a Souza march, my bet would be that it's in a majorish tonality. Not all minorish stuff needs to be "sad" of course. My favorite work by Bach, "The Art of The Fugue," brings me great joy and yet is pretty much a collection of minor works. But although a form of happiness, that's a very different reaction (and one involving more subtle tension-release) than hearing his quintessential major scale work "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring."

I allow that a wide diversity of experience exists. I'm speaking more about general tendencies. I just have a hard time imagining that a psychologically healthy and mature individual would, on a basic level, react more positively to extensive dissonace than consonance. I say that primarily addressing a single dissonant interval, without considering the context within which it occurs. Obviously life has many ups and downs, and for a musical experience to really embody the whole of it, dissonance and tension-release are required. Otherwise, it'd just be boring.

Thanks for the 'give and take' Tony, I appreciate your thoughts.

I happened to remember that I have a book called "Music," written by the great Indian Sufi mystic/musician Hazrat Inayat Khan. It's just a general text, not really academic. I don't find any specific discussion of major/minor tonality. He says quite a bit about the way different things about music effect a person, such as how certain types of music are used for healing or spiritual evolution. It was a great sorrow in his life how Indian classical music was being degraded during his lifetime. He contrasts this sacred tradition with the atmosphere of early jazz, which he was alive to witness. He also comments on how certain ragas are designed to be played at certain parts of the day. He talks about the great effect that the type of instrument or voice has on a listener, even the material the strings are made of.

I found this interesting:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The working of these five elements is distinguished by different colours and sounds. The five elements are represented by sound. In the musical scales or ragas of India and China, the raga of five notes is considered the most appealing; and my own experience is that the scale of five notes is much more appealing than the scale of seven notes. The scale of seven notes lacks some vital influence which the scale of five notes possesses.

-Inayat Khan </SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Apparently this pentatonic scale thing is for real.

He acknowledges that someone exists who will like every type of music. He discusses the role that spiritual evolution has in this.

Of course people in India now have been exposed to Western musical influence for decades. A lot of what I've been saying (like how there is no intentional harmony in Indian music) has to do with their classical tradition. Indian musical culture has a lot of western features now.

I have a favorite local Indian restaurant that I frequent, which is ran by a family of Sikhs from the Punjab. The young woman proprietor once asked me to help her learn how to sing "She'll be Comin' Around the Mountain." I made her a cassette tape with some instruction, including a discussion of the major scale.

<SMALL>He acknowledges that someone exists who will like every type of music. He discusses the role that spiritual evolution has in this.</SMALL>

..I can't say that I'm looking forward to the incarnation in which I learn to appreciate rap..(sigh)..progress, not perfection..

Hey, How could Archie Bell & the Drelles have ever done the "Tighten' Up" without it (Maj 7)? Yes, they were from Houston, Texas and yes, they could "dance just as good as we want to".

Jeff, I think you're more of an expert on this topic than you give our self credit for. I see a doctoral thesis here somewhere...

I've heard very little Indian (Eastern) music, but I have had the good fortune to hear several elder Native American men sing. Their songs seem as though they were not produced, but were always there; the singer merely 'tapped into' their flow through the air and resonated with them. I feel that this is the ultimate in music. It should reflect not only ourselves, but also the immediate world around us, with all of its glorious animation. Personally, I find it difficult to play music well when I allow this Earth connection to be severed.

But, more to the point, is there a common thread among all human music? That is, are the notes that Native American musicians choose for certain purposes similar to those used by Native Africans for the same purposes, etc? Only the structured, objective hand of science could answer that question.

.. a music teacher (PhD in music, former first chair violinist for the new haven symphony etc) explained to me when teaching the theory of '7th chords' as Paul Franklin did, and explained the following,
you have yoru minor 7th, and your major 7th, and the 7th chord we all know was at one time called (more properly called) a major-minor 7th, and is just shortened to be called a 7th

... all the theory has long been forgotten by me, of course, but that statement sticks in my head

Beautiful description, Tony. I too feel that every situation is different, and we need to be receptive to that. I guess I'm not sensitive enough to significantly notice changes in the natural environment, but I sure notice changes manifest in the music when different people are present, particularly in the band. No way can I recreate something from one situation to the next. That used to baffle me until I acknowledged that a real connection with other people exists, and needs to be honored.

C.G. Jung's ideas and research about the "collective unconscious" occur to me in connection with your musings about a commonality between us all. He talked in terms of levels of mind. Down below the personal and "racial-cultural" levels, he firmly believed that his studies established that connection. for example, he found that there was an "archetypal" level to dreams in which common images could show up across cultures. I'm not sure what his work could say about music, what commonality it could establish below the racial-cultural level. I'll think about that.

People do experience a lot in common. We all smile, cry, nurse our young, etc.

<SMALL>and the 7th chord we all know was at one time called (more properly called) a major-minor 7th, and is just shortened to be called a 7th </SMALL>

Gino, are you sure he wasn't referring to how the term "dominant 7th" was shortened to just 7th? There still is a major/minor 7th chord. It's a minor triad with a natural 7th. Maybe you know something I don't, Gino.

I COUDL be wrong, since this was ummm like 16 years ago, and seeing that I cant remember what I did yesterday at this time, my memory COUDL be off.... I'll have to look around, maybe even give him a call for a better explanation.

<SMALL>I have had the good fortune to hear several elder Native American men sing. Their songs seem as though they were not produced, but were always there; the singer merely 'tapped into' their flow through the air and resonated with them......But, more to the point, is there a common thread among all human music? That is, are the notes that Native American musicians choose for certain purposes similar to those used by Native Africans for the same purposes, etc?</SMALL>

..sometimes my 5 year old daughter will be playing by herself and singing something that seems to just be only in her head, and she did it more when she was 3 or 4. I think in our western culture we're born with that ability but we soon lose it as we become acclimated to our cultural sounds, the same as happens with language...

..as to the commonality, the songs that she makes up on the fly do have a western sound to them, I don't hear any Eastern or African "notes" or influence in it, so my guess is that, again like language, we learn our musical sounds from infancy and that's what we relate to...

..it would be interesting to hear from someone who, from first infancy, was subjected to the notes or sounds from both eastern and western cultures...do they meld the two in some way, can they easily jump back and forth like someone fluent in languages, or do their minds eventually have to choose one cultural sound or the other as primary?..

One thing to remember is that hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have resulted in human hearing that is keenly attuned to speech patterns. Popular instruments play in a range that can be sung - sax, steel, guitar, violin, sitar etc. It would be my guess that our perception of the emotional content of various scales and chords is strongly related to speech patterns. Some people (Noam Chomsky, for one) argue that there is an underlying speech function in humans, and I would posit that musical perception is grafted on top of that, as a capricious luxury.

Excellent point, David. But isn't it equally likely that speech developed from song? Or, alternatively, that our distinction between speech and song may actually be unique to our culture?

Wayne, here is an example of a Maj 7/9 chord that I use on endings. I pick this as an acsending arpegio. On a basic E9 tuning, in open position with your A and B pedals down, pick strings 9,7,6,5 and 4. Let off of your A pedal and then "mash" it back down. This is a D Maj7/9 chord. To use it with your bar you just go up two frets from whatever key you're in.

Another derivation on Bob Watson's ending chord that I use sometimes on songs like Silver Wings is a major 11th, I think. Two frets up from the open major chord, with only the B pedal engaged, slowly strum every string from 9-3.

If we are going to really get back to major seventh chords - a great use for country players is on the intro to Night Life -

CMaj7 / EbMaj7 / AbMaj7 / G7 /

Also used as a turnaround between verses.

Tony LaCroix - Here is another example of the usefulness of a chord scale approach. Try to use just the C scale to play over that.