Who out there reads music

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 11 May 2003 9:41 am

In a way we are talking about something here that just does not exist.
The steel licks, rides etc that most people want to learn are not written in music. It is just not out there. If it was I am sure more of us would spend the time to learn to read.
The foremost steel teachers use tab and it works, but as was stated previously with cassette recordings or videos of the material.

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Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 11 May 2003 9:51 am

Further to my post above I am not suggesting that it is not wise to learn to read music.
I encourage and endorse it wholeheartly
because I know first hand of the many benifits it offers.
My point is that the amount of music available for steel guitar is very limited.
I think we are waiting for someone to write a book of steel guitar music containing some
of the standard solos etc with absolutely no tab.
The questions that follow are: Would it sell?? Would people learn to read music or revert back or just stay with standard tablature??

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Peter · Post by **Peter** » 11 May 2003 10:17 am

I found that not many can write for steel guitar. There are so many options and permutations for the same note-sequence or phrase. Exact position and string-grips should be included in the notation by the writer.
But I believe it was LG who said: Learn to play the same thing in at least 3 different ways on you guitar.

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Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 11 May 2003 10:23 am

In some ways you're right Roy. Especially if you are just learning to play. It would take more than a few years just to get around a little bit. I think we are talking about players who have already done the tab thing. Now its time to make up some of our own origional ideas and know why we are doing them. One of my most burning questions I tried to ask anyone who would listen at the Texas convention this year was weather they come from a chord positions then play the scales or the other way around as maybe a horn player who can't play chords anyways. Obviously it is a combination of both because steel is such a good chord instrument but when you come from a different direction your playing should have more of your own Origional personality...... hopefully in my opinion.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 11 May 2003 10:27 am

More whiskey...fresh horses for you intellectual steel guitar playing mad scientists!

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 11 May 2003 11:57 am

I can read but I'm slowww.. at it! What I do is look at the music staff and see it as intervals. For example, if the song is in the key of F, or 1 flat, B flat in the key signature, I know the second space is an interval of a third and the next space a 5th and so on. Then the line above the first space is an interval of a 2nd, the next a 4th and so on. By looking at it this way all I have to know is the intervals of strings at my open position, relative to the key to read the notes. Any alteration will be noted away from the key signature like a flat 7, flat 5, etc.
Just a method I worked out that made since to me.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 May 2003 12:35 pm

Peter wrote:

Exact position and string-grips should be included in the notation by the writer.

I disagree, Peter. All you really should need to know is the fret number. Most music can only be played one way at a given fret.

If music written for steel simply notes each movement of the bar, there is little doubt as to how to play the piece. Place the notations above the staff: "8 fr.", "10 fr." etc.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 12 May 2003 12:28 pm

No musical notation can ever document what I consider to be "music". I say this because I've associated with aspiring musicians all my life and 95% of them think music is notes on a page. I think of musical notation as the documentation that historians leave behind as inovative and passionate musicians plow their ways past those who have it backwards.

With that said, it can be a valuable tool to the modern musician, just like good cooks can tell you how many teaspoons are in a pint (if they have too).

P.S. None of the above applies to Jazz or Classical musicians... or fast-food cooks.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 12 May 2003 6:42 pm

I learned to read when I started on the trumpet in tha second grade.I quit that thing when I discovered guitars in the seventh grade.I never tried to read for the guitar.Now..a strange thing happened..I went to church and started singing from the hymn books. I found I could sing the song by reading the notes.If I can hear the notes in my head I can play them on my guitar.I believe any child who is interested in music should take five or six years of piano before going on to other instruments.The rythm sections I usally get stuck with don't know or hear more than three or four chords in a song anyway.
Just my thoughts...Bud

Evelyn Whitney · Post by **Evelyn Whitney** » 12 May 2003 7:22 pm

LEONARD T. ZINN READS MUSIC NOTES.
HE ALSO WRITES A GREAT DEAL OF THAT SORT OF THING.

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 13 May 2003 12:23 pm

I have experimented with writing music for my Steel and use the notations and hints found in Classical Guitar music which I
studied for five years back in the eighty's.

Check out the following link. You can also listen to the MP3 to hear how it sounds.
http://www.clictab.com/royt/tab36.htm

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 May 2003 8:12 am

I sort of agree with b0b. The minimal notation that you need to play written music on steel is the fret number. Naming the chord changes would also be very helpful. This is not out of the ordinary for written music. Piano music includes numbers over the notes to give hints about which fingers to use. They don't put a number over every note, but just give some key fingering hints to keep your hand in the best position for what is ahead. There are also lines that indicate when one hand crosses over the other. So for steel, I think you really need to have hints about which fret to go to and what chord you are playing. Lots of written music has chords written above the music, even a lot of fake books.

Still, the most ideal situation is having the written music above with the tab running along below it (some instruction material is like that). Let's face it, this is a unique and uniquely complicated instrument - there is no reason to expect traditional written music to be adequate for us. A computer program that could convert tab to written music and vice versus would be really nice to have.

Looking at the written music for the intervals only works for simple chordal stuff. Runs and melodies with accidentals require you to know how to get the full chromatic scale at a given fret. This is not easy, because not all the chromatic scale is available, and what is available changes with the pedal and knee combination being used. So maby some pedal and knee information below the written music would help. A diatonic tuning that provides the entire chromatic scale at each fret (I think b0b has described such a thing) would greatly help with this, but then you would loose the chords and chord glisses that are so characteristic of the pedal steel sound.

This is all a real challenge for the future. I think the first step is to take advantage of today's computers and come up with software that allows easy writing of both tab and written music, and converts between the two. The ultimate would be software that could take the music as you play it (or from a recording) and convert that into written music and tab. Because of the small steel market, creating this software would have to be a labor of love, and probably not many steelers have that kind of computer knowledge.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 May 2003 8:33 am

Still, the most ideal situation is having the written music above with the tab running along below it (some instruction material is like that).

I think that's fine for instructional material, but it's impractical for general use. Tab uses about 3 times as much space on the page as a musical staff. If you're playing something that's over a minute long, you're going to be doing a lot of page turning.

If you know the fret number, most notes can only be played on one string. When there's a choice of strings (4 lowered vs. 2 on E9, for example), why not just leave it up to the performer?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 14 May 2003 at 12:51 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 May 2003 10:25 am

You're right, b0b, the tab takes a lot of space, and maybe it should be just for instructional stuff. But man it sure helps in figuring out the music on the first time through. Maybe the ideal would be to have this in a computer file where you could print it out with or without the tab. Then you could use both whey you are first working out the piece, but only use the written music once you get up to speed.

On a related note, is there such a thing as a computer program that will let you scan in a piece of written music, and then have the computer transpose it to another key for print out?

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 14 May 2003 11:42 am

David,
Here's one: http://www.musitek.com/midiscan.html

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 17 May 2003 6:51 am

Tom Bradshaw and I were discussing reading music years ago and it is food for thought. What does it mean to "read" music. I took piano lessons early in life and I can figure out the notes from the music, and I know the type chord I'm playing on the steel, but I have to think about which key the chord is. Tom pointed out that there were those who could look at the music and hum the tune...now that's reading music.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 May 2003 7:32 am

There were two goals in life that I regretted not accomplishing....one was not having a university degree, which I finally achieved...and the other was not learning to read music. I have survived without it, but my self-esteem has suffered! I sing bass in church and can follow the notation but I still can't follow the melody line!

In reference to professional steel playing...I have to default to the numbers chart!

Gene
www.genejones.com

Al Vescovo · Post by **Al Vescovo** » 21 May 2003 4:24 pm

Just answer this ?. What do you do when you go on a studio call and the copyist hands you your part to play? Maybe it,s a harmony part to play with a trumpet and saxophone. You had better be able to read music, because they sure won't have your steel part written in tab. I'm going on a tour of Japan next month with the Billy Vaughn Orchestra and all of my music is notation and sometimes chord symbols. If I couldn't read music then I wouldn'd be able to take this job. There's one rehersal and then the next time we play, it's in the concert hall. So please, if you want to do your self a favor and also help legitimise the Steel Guitar as a real musical instrument, which it is,learn to read music. Thanks for the soapbox.

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Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 23 May 2003 2:27 pm

Albert----A big AMEN! Not to mention all the time saved in rehearsals: if it's hard, walk it through the first time; next cut it at the real tempo; next, go public with it. I've known of Rockers and Country Music players to practice for hours on end with their band because of lack of musicical communication. Also, I've never heard of anyone "sight reading" tab! By the way, I hope your tour goes well; that Vaughn group was really famous around Memphis. My trip to Aruba and the Eastern Caribbean was terrific. Good Luck. Hugh

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 23 May 2003 3:07 pm

DAVID....I don't know of a program that can actually scan something into the computer and read it. Scaning something like that would simply go into the computer like a picture file.
I had a class assignment to actually write out a verse and chorus of my choice in a jazz tune called Blue Seven. I couldn't in my wildest dreams right now take a piece of musical staff and write something down and know it it was anywhere close to being right. But with my Band in a box program I was able to PAINSTAKINGLY work on it for quite a few hours and get it reasonably close. Keep in mind this was only a single note horn solo! But I could hear it after I "
wrote it" in the program and kept messing with it until it sounded like the recording. I woke up in the middle of the night with that solo in my head!. And the program will transpose it to any key you like with a mouse click. Kind of a crutch but so is Spell checker.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 23 May 2003 3:14 pm

Excuse me, I just read the reply and link a few posts back. I guess there is a program that will scan a piece of music..totally cool. It says it saves it as a midi. file. There are a lot of way to play that. You could import that into Band in a Box, then to power tracks probably have 40 free tracks to record your own stuff with it as well!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 23 May 2003 4:08 pm

Sight reading, with it's emphasis on the individual notes, is a problem on the E9 neck because the system does not give us enough information to just sit down and play what's written.

On other instruments, there may be more than one way to hit any given note, but on the PSG, the notes fall on different frets, depending on our pedal positions.

That doesn't mean it can't be done, but it requires more from us than the same skill would require from a player of another instrument. It's not easy, but it's not impossible.

Earlier in this thread, Bobby made a reference to my music theory book. This book began as a series of articles for SGW, and was later expanded into a book on ,music theory as it specifically pertained to the E9 neck. Eventually, when I re-wrote it for Mel Bay, I deleted all references to the steel and made it a generalized thing that applied to all instruments.

But in the steel guitar version (which is now out of print) I included a short lesson on how to sight read for the E9 tuning. I still have the file, and will gladly send it to anybody who writes to me and asks for it.

Basically, what it says is that you need to be able to recognise chord outlines in the music, and make the chord however best fits. Then use the pedals to play any non chordal tones.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 23 May 2003 6:11 pm

One thing I really admire about the french musicians is the strong Sulfege training.
Most of these guys can look at some music and just sing it from the notes and then put it on their instrument. Crowbear is good at this too.

My DRUMMER is a monster at it. I was telling him about Doug Jernigan's version of Dexterity by Charlie Parker.. He said he didn't know it.. So I handed him the Realbook.

He just started singing it at FULL tempo, note perfect. I could almost hear the piano comping behind him. JUST SCARY !
Especially if you know Dexterity; the name is well earned.

They have one advantage here,
Do is ALWAYS C, Sol is always G, Fa = F etc
B which we call Ti is pronounced Ce here, which is VERY confusing... (they talking notes or sulfege...Auuggh.)

With the Berklee/Nashville # transposing system I know Do is F in F key and A in A key etc. And Do always I, So is always V etc.

Great for playing with a straight chart, but a singer in a different key.
But here they see a C note and sing Do automatically. It has it's uses.
But I also don't see them transpose as fast here.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 23 May 2003 6:19 pm

Even though the steel has many positions for the same note, SO DOES the Guitar. Place your index finger across any given fret on the guitar, and you have a 21/2 octave range WITHOUT moving your left hand. The same goes for steel. In any piece of music to be read, the reader FIRST determines the highest and lowest notes to be played; then he/she knows where to place the bar. It's unfortunate that so many "tunings" are so limited in range. HJ

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 23 May 2003 8:03 pm

Mike has hit the nail on the head. Any given note in the music can be played on many frets or strings and with many pedal/lever combinations. When I get around to it, here is how I will approach reading music on pedal steel. First I will use a computer to get the music in the key of C. From my piano back ground I know the scales and chords in this key pretty well. As someone above said, you have to be able to recognize the chords in the music. Even if you are playing a single note melody with only adding harmony occassionally, you have to recognize the chord progression the melody is moving through.

Now, if I see the music is at a I chord, I go to a I chord position (fret and pedal/knee combination). On E9 there are at least three I chord positions: no pedals/knees, AB pedals, A pedal and F lever - pick one (on a universal you also have the I6 position). Now at that position I have to know what written note of the C scale, including the chromatics or accidentals, is on each of the 10 (or 12) strings plus what note each pedal and lever gives at that position. I would pick a beginning piano book and learn to play songs at that position until I could do simple melodies, including accidentals, and some chords. Once you get that under your belt, you will need to learn the same stuff at each of the other positions for a I chord.

There are some notes, especially accidentals, that are not available at some positions, or are hard to get. In that sense the pedal steel is not a truly chromatic instrument. Yes, you can always move the bar one way or another to get an accidental, but you then loose (or at least change) all the harmony strings. Knowing what scale notes or accidentals are not available at each I chord position will help you choose which of the three or more positions you should go to for a particular phrase or passage.

Now you can play in the key of C at any of several I chord positions. But you are only using a small fraction of the notes and harmonies available on the instrument. Next you have to learn to play in the key of C at the IV, V and relative minor (i.e., the VIm) positions. Again some, but not all, of the scale notes and accidentals in the key of C are available at each of these. Furthermore, each of those chords can be played at several positions. You have to learn to play the C scale and its accidentals at each of those. So where any other instrument learns to play a C scale (with accidentals) at one place on the instrument, a pedal steeler has to learn it at dozens of places. And this is just one key. There are 12 keys.

But we ain't even done with the key of C yet. Plenty of songs will contain other chords in the key of C: II, IIm, IIIb, III, VI, VII. You will want to be at some of those positions if they are in the progression of the song, so you will need to know the C scale and accidentals at those positions also.

Of course, at any of the above chord positions you might want to make the chord a 6th, 7th, 9th, augmented, suspended, etc. But that is not such a big problem, because the music you are reading will have the notes that make those changes. So if you just read the music and play the notes you read, those harmonies will automatically be made. That is in fact the way music readers play. They can play all sorts of complicated harmonies just by reading the music, but they can't necessarily name the chords on the fly as they read and play them. They don't have to, that's the beauty of reading music.

This is why it is so hard for us to read music on pedal steel. We have learned it backwards. We usually know roughly what chords and harmonies we are playing (at least by the number system), but not necessarily the names of the notes and what they look like in written music. People who learn an instrument by reading music know where all the individual written notes are on the instrument, and thus can play any written chords or harmony without knowing the chord names, even though they know the names of the individual notes. Pedal steelers are the opposite. We can go to a fret and hit the right combination of pedals and knees to get a chord we can name, but we may not be able to name the individual notes we are playing.

The neat thing about our way of playing is that we can transpose easily. Even a novice steeler can fairly easily change from playing in C to playing in C# or D. I have no idea what the scale and chords are in the key of Eb, I just know how to find the I, IV and V chords, etc. But for a piano player to transpose from the key of C to Eb, he has to know the Eb scale and chords. Very few piano players can do that. But if you shove the music in front of them written in the key of Eb, they are off and running.

So anyway, suppose a steeler has finally learned to read music at all the positions in the key of C. That is the biggest part of the problem. Yes there are 11 more keys. But all the chords in C will be in other keys as well, so as you learn a handful of the most common keys, you will know all the chords before you get around to all the keys.

Another way to look at this is to realize you have to learn all the written notes available at each of the 12 frets, and with every pedal and knee combination at each of those frets. That's 15 to 20 notes per fret, or 180 to 240 notes.

But now comes the hard part. Unless you are always going to scan your music into a computer and transpose it into C, you have to be able to recognize the chord progressions you see embedded in the written music in any key, in order to know what position to play at. This is what other instruments don't have to do. They just play the music as written and it automatically puts them at the right place on their instrument. Written music does not do that for the pedal steel (okay the 6-string guitar and orchestral strings have the same problem, but not nearly to the same degree).

This is giving me a headache and making me thirsty. It's gettin' late. I'm gonna go have a beer and play some music by ear. Buddy Emmons and Curly Chalker have done pretty good that way. If I could just do 0.00001% of that...

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 May 2003 at 10:41 PM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 May 2003 at 10:48 PM.]