Chords to songs you do not know

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 7 Apr 2003 7:41 am

I have pretty much made a career of going on stage cold,playing with bands I've never played with before,playing tunes I've never played before or tunes I've played but in different keys,different arrangements,etc and I've had to make it sound like I know what I'm doing.I usually start by quietly sliding up the neck till I reach the tonic and go from there.I might "lay low" the first time around taking note of the changes and intervals and then I can make a grand intrance at the top of the second verse or the first chorus. If the guitar player can play it helps to listen for leading tones signaling an upcoming change.Noodling in a relative minor till you get a handle on the changes is another trick. It's not a gift,it didn't come easy and I didn't start with it - I learned it over the years by trial and error and just doing it. -MJ-

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 7 Apr 2003 7:52 am

Carl.
I agree 100% with what Tom Campbell wrote.Listen to the root note,then try to figure out which 3rd you hear.Is it a major or minor?After that all the rest (7th,6th,5+,5-,inversions etc...)will come by itself.Start out with EZ songs.
DON'T be so negative about it!Positive thinking helps a lot.And you know what?Miracles happen sometimes too.
I'm sure you can do it.Good luck Carl.
JS[This message was edited by John Sluszny on 07 April 2003 at 08:54 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 7 Apr 2003 7:55 am

in numbersystem , I can, get fooled once in a while when a bassplayer doesn't play the root. Hey Rick, remember the laugh we had in the hotelroom with Bob? The pitch of his alarmclock?

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Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Apr 2003 8:27 am

What you guys are talking about is basic ear training. Anybody that can play steel in tune should have no problem learning how to identify chord progressions. Some guys have an easier time with ear training than others but with focused practice time ANYBODY can do it.

Here is a simple chord recognition trick for a I IV V type tune:

When the song starts sing the root of the first chord. When the chord changes keep singing the same note. If it is a IV chord that note will sound good. If the note sounds out the chord will be a V chord. If you think it is a V chord just lower the note you are singing by a half step and if that sounds good you have your V chord. Once you can sing a note and understand what it is you will be able to hear that note in you head. You are well on your way at that point.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 07 April 2003 at 09:29 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 7 Apr 2003 8:51 am

....(Charles Smith)...As long as the bass is playing the correct changes...

....I agree Charles, but you have identified a major problem with playing unfamiliar material...the bass player may not know it either!.... www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 07 April 2003 at 09:53 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Apr 2003 9:12 am

Carl,
I can hear chord changes. But I also think that there is a lot to be said about someone like yourself who is admired, respected, and appreciated by everyone who meets you, and for a lot more than whether you can hear what chords are being played. Do you ever relish the fact that eveyone thinks you're great? Just like us with our "gift" for hearing chords, you probably take for granted how revered you are, a true elder statesmen on this Forum as well as in any number of areas in your life I imagine. When I get to where you are, I can assure you that I will not be held in the kind of esteem that you are, even with my ear for jazz harmony. Only a very few have the "gifts" that you have, your character, astonishing grasp of history and facts, and razor-sharp logical thinking that causes so many people to look up to you for advice and council. .. Jeff

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 7 Apr 2003 9:38 am

Ditto's Jeff!...I really appreciate Carl's willingness not to chaulk things up as "crap" that might be temporarily out of his grasp. Hang in there Carl, you have gifts that we all envy.[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 07 April 2003 at 10:48 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Apr 2003 10:19 am

Carl, there are three things involved in what you are asking about. One is to hear and know the chord progression as you play along with the music, and to anticipate the next change and be there on time. Or if it is quirky to recognize it and get there quick, possibly with a good sounding transition. The great pros can do that for almost anything.

I can do that only up to moderate speeds with really simple standard progressions of I, IV, V with maybe a relative minor or a II thrown in. Obviously I'm mostly thinking of the interval numbers, and frequently don't have a clue what the name of the chord is, especially if the song is in Bb or F# or some nonstandard key. On pedal steel sometimes I don't even know the interval number, I just know to hit a fret somewhere in relation to the tonic and hit a certain knee or pedal combination to get that sound.

The other thing is to be able to take a complicated progression and start and stop a CD or tape and find all the chords by the above process, but also adding trial and error with the music stopped. I can do that on any instrument I play (piano, guitar, Dobro, pedal steel, sax). On steel, when I hear a chord I don't know, I stop the CD and run up and down string 8 (E9 neck, or string 9 on C6/B6) until I find the right root. I can usually hear whether it is a 7th, 6th, 9th or straight minor chord - beyond that it's back to trial and error again.

Finally, there is playing a melody you have never worked out. Again, the great pros can do that. On something slow and simple I can find about half the melody notes, but have to stop the music to find the others by trial and error.

Sax and other horns are an interesting contrast to piano, guitar and steel. Obviously, horns only play one note at a time. Knowing some chords can help you play harmony if you don't know the melody. But the intervals don't help much. You have to know the exact named chromatic note. It's like playing a guitar or steel with one string. Sometimes if you don't hit the right note you can fake a run up or down to it. But it's not as easy as sliding the bar. It makes a big difference the notes you put in or leave out of the run. If you play a major run in a minor chord or vice versus, it sounds like crap and everybody gives you a really bad look. In jazz and blues you have to really have the right notes for the type of scale the song is based on. So it's all about scales more than chords. And you frequently end up in weird keys like F#. It's a whole different world.

I don't think any of this is all black and white, where you are either born with it or not, but it comes more natural if you start young and play a lot of music (like learning a language fluidly without an accent). I can sort of do it, because I did start young. But I have mostly stayed an amateur and so haven't put in the daily hours that gives real pros those seemingly magical skills.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 7 Apr 2003 10:51 am

but you have identified a major problem with playing unfamiliar material...the bass player may not know it either!.

Thanks for the memories, I used to sit in with a band that had a bass player who, I was convinced, took up the bass because it only had 4 strings, "how hard could it be". He would get lost and just stop playing, at which point it was like a "trap door" under the stage would open up and we would just fall through. When I would call him on it, I'd tell he can't just stop because I needed him to lead me through the chords and be the bottom. His reply was that it had never been a problem before and he'd never worked with a steel player before so the problem must be the steel player and that was the end of that.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Apr 2003 1:10 pm

"so the problem must be the steel player and that was the end of that".

See how simple it is?

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 7 Apr 2003 1:48 pm

....He would get lost and just stop playing....

....even worse, he would get lost and "keep on" playing!.... www.genejones.com

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 7 Apr 2003 2:35 pm

If anyone is lacking in Ear Training, I recommend the great Jamey Aebersold's many fine books/videos, tapes, etc. at www.jazzbooks.com Jamey has been publishing jazz aids, conducting seminars in jazz (three levels: beg., intermediate, and advanced jazz for over 30 years, using the finest jazz talent available; i.e., Ron Carter, Linnie Niehaus, and many well-known instrumentalists from New York as well as the west coast. You can't go wrong if you're serious about progressive music.....HJ

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 7 Apr 2003 3:53 pm

i completely concur with hoffnar and if i were to teach music i would start with exactly his example even before reading and scales.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Apr 2003 4:38 pm

Here is a fun on line ear training site:
www.ossmann.com/bigears/

here are a couple methods:
www.sibelius.com/products/auralia/

http://www.muse-eek.com/books/books.html

http://www.ars-nova.com/home.html

Every community college with any sort of music program will have ear training classes. Jazz ear training would most likely be more applicable to what steel players play than classical ear training. But everything helps.

Bob
[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 07 April 2003 at 05:42 PM.]

Mike Marchelya · Post by **Mike Marchelya** » 7 Apr 2003 9:07 pm

If you don't have Band in a Box, get it! In addition to all its other great features, BIAB has a marvelous interval and "name that chord" program. And you can play "name that chord" with BIAB in a couple of other ways as well. Play any BIAB song then name the chords and check yourself as the chord notation scrolls, or program some changes you'd like to be able to recognize and run them until they become familiar. Get a few "lessons" set up then take a couple of minutes to practice them each day.

Sigi Meissner · Post by **Sigi Meissner** » 8 Apr 2003 2:57 am

I like all of your comments.
Carl, you didn’t mention if you need any help or advice. Professional musician and good amateurs have to hear the changes definitive otherwise they got complete lost while playing. Jazz musicians are the real champions in hearing complex voicing. I consider myself as a real expert in transforming sound into written music. I'm working on it since about 22 Years. I remember it drove me so creasy when I wanted to find out a certain alternated Jazz chord with foreign bass in the root. It is actually not a gift. It is hard work of practicing over the years a probably learnable like anything else up to a certain level depending on your talent. The more you work on it the more your ears become sensitive. In case you need a little help: start with very simple things: Let somebody play Triads on the piano or a standard guitar and try to recognize Major or minor. Then go ahead and try to find out the V or IV Chord in relation to the I Chord.
I hope this helps. In case you need more help e-mail me

Sigi

Sigi Meissner · Post by **Sigi Meissner** » 8 Apr 2003 3:00 am

I like all of your comments.
Carl, you didn’t mention if you need any help or advice. Professional musician and good amateurs have to hear the changes definitive otherwise they got complete lost while playing. Jazz musicians are the real champions in hearing complex voicing. I consider myself as a real expert in transforming sound into written music. I'm working on it since about 22 Years. I remember it drove me so creasy when I wanted to find out a certain alternated Jazz chord with foreign bass in the root. It is actually not a gift. It is hard work of practicing over the years a probably learnable like anything else up to a certain level depending on your talent. The more you work on it the more your ears become sensitive. In case you need a little help: start with very simple things: Let somebody play Triads on the piano or a standard guitar and try to recognize Major or minor. Then go ahead and try to find out the V or IV Chord in relation to the I Chord.
I hope this helps. If you need more help e-mail me

Sigi

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Apr 2003 7:21 am

Sigi,

At 71 ALL the help or cures have long since been established.

There comes a time in life when one has to realize those talents that God has blessed them with and those talents that were given to others. Thank Jesus ALL were given talents. But ALL were not given the same talents.

carl

Perry Hansen · Post by **Perry Hansen** » 8 Apr 2003 7:32 pm

My sister and I started playing guitar when I was 10 years old. She was 13. We had a game we would play. She would start playing just the chords of a song and I would have to guess what she was playing. The way we progressed thru the years was that we could tell the way a singers voice changed would tell us what the next chord would be. It works.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 9 Apr 2003 5:48 am

I was sitting with Reece one afternoon and we were working on a Jaime Abersole deal and the chords were just flying by at breakneck speed. When I asked him if he knew what the chords were he said "Well sure" and proceeded to follow the progression in numbers as fast as we could talk. He claims that it is nothing and that anyone could do it if that's what they chose to do (made me feel like just packin' up

). He didn't know off the top of his head what the names of the chords were as he said that wasn't important- just the numbers.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 10 Apr 2003 1:04 pm

I joined a band the day I got my first steel, I'd had some musical experience but still had some real ear development to do to keep up with new songs. I found myself consistently missing some of the minor chords, for instance. I was fortunate enough to attend Jeff Newman's first Advanced/Teaching class, and one of the WONDERFUL things he did was have us spend half a day charting songs by ear, and then reviewing the proper charts- I found that what I was doing was confusing the 2 and 6 minors... the amazing part, was once I saw where I was "not hearing" correctly and then went back and relistened to the tunes, I COULD hear the difference in the chords! Ever since I've found that if I can isolate certain chords that I find hard to hear, I can fine tune my ear to recognize them. It's the same process that occurs over time sitting in with different groups playing thousands of unfamiliar songs, but accelerated through focus and concentration. It may seem a boring excercise to many folks, but just sitting down and charting your CD collection can give you the same benefits as playing a whole lot of pickup gigs (as far as hearing chords goes) Some of the modern country stuff uses a lot of poly-chords and stacked substitutions, and that can make 'em harder to hear, but it gets easier the more it's practiced. I agree with earlier posts that knowing as much theory as possible, practicing intervallic ear training, listening to the various genres for similarities/differences, and practicing with Aebersold and Band in a Box are all vitally important. It comes easier to some, and harder for the rest of us, but very worth the time spent.

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C'mon by and visit!- www.markvanallen.com
My Bands: Sugarland Kate and the Retreads Kecia Garland Band Shane Bridges Band Dell Conner Blues Band

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 10 Apr 2003 6:54 pm

Carl,
Here is another little trick to get your ear going. While this won't exactly show you all the chords at once, it is along the same line that Bob H. espoused.

As I'm sitting here now and typing away, I've got tunes going down. I also have a
"construction" ear plug (throw-away cheapo)
jammed in my right ear.

What I do is sing along, or hum along [instrumentals] to the songs. Not all of them. Not all of the time. When one "grabs" me at a particular time, then I "play" with it.
Just as Bob H. was saying, sing out a note and see how it fits in what is being played.
With the one ear plug installed, you will be able to here your voice like you never have before. It's sort of like a microphone.
So now, you can really "adjust" your vocals to what is being played.

After a while, it gets to be real fun as now you can really try some outlandish bending
and slurring, flattening/sharpening your voice,
and instantly hearing if it makes it or not.

The ear plugs are small foamy cylinders about the size of the 1st digit on your pinky finger, and they can be squeezed and mooshed into any shape.

Give em a try. This really works.

Think back to some early videos of singers.
You would see some put a finger in one ear.
And this was done live and on-stage. You just
can hear the overall sound much better with one ear (semi) blocked-off.

Try it.

And Carl, yes, you are truly one of the greats here, on this great Forum.

Chipper[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 10 April 2003 at 08:02 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 Apr 2003 9:46 pm

I can usually hear the chords and play along with songs I don't know. As others have mentioned already, it's a matter of listening to the bass player.

Occasionally I get stumped. When that happens I do one of 2 things.
1- lay out for the song.
2- grab my E-bow, and play one string with no pedals, and just slide the bar around more or less at random till some note I hit blends in with whatever chord the rest of the band is playing. Of course I have no idea what I'm doing, but the audience inevitably thinks it's wonderful and I always get compliments every time I do it.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 11 Apr 2003 3:14 am

To expand on what Mike Perlowin said, a MOVING note is never out of tune with anything - it's only when you STOP that you're in or out of tune. This is the secret of success for many a stoned rock slide guitarist. Sometimes playing the wrong notes fast as hell can sound "advanced" too, but unfortunately I don't have the steel chops for that yet.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Apr 2003 10:53 am

For listening, I prefer music that I can't figure out the chords to. If my brain is going 1, 4, 2m, 5, etc. it detracts from my enjoyment of the music - it's too much like work.

This is why a lot of my CD collection is classical and modern music. Often I want to listen as an escape, not to learn new songs or techniques.

In popular music, I enjoy it most when the bass is not playing the root of the chord, or if the chords are ambiguous. I'm even starting to write that way. One of the songs we're working on now has the bass playing a different, more "primal" progression than what the guitars are playing. It rocks!

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