The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **21 Oct 2014 6:33 pm**

If you have an hour and the interest, check this
http://www.prx.org/pieces/116447?m=false
Not specifically about psg but interesting explorations of tunings

Posted: **21 Oct 2014 7:03 pm**

Posted: **22 Oct 2014 5:26 am**

Bengt Erlandsen wrote:The best reason I can think of for tuning the steel-guitar straight up to 440 is that it would be in tune with piano (at least on the open strings), but you don't hear piano and steel-guitar playing at the same time on a lot of recordings and there might be a good reason why the song has been arranged like that.

---- Bengt, this is only my personal opinion, but I've always thought the steel, and piano didn't usually sound well together(usually when playing rhythm, as when another lead instrument player is doing his thing), because they normally occupy a lot of the same notes, and/or octaves, and therefore tend to clash, or make the band sound too busy, when played at the same time. -Jake-

Posted: **23 Oct 2014 7:25 pm**

Dick Wood wrote:I tried that tuning straight up thing and ain't no way it works for me.

Did you try it with a band or by yourself?

bob

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 4:30 am**

b0b wrote:

I tune the roots and 5ths 5 cents sharp, and the 3rds and 6ths 5 cents flat. Close enough for what I can hear.
B0b,
I like this tuning but what do you tune your E to Eb/D# lever to (LKR)?

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 5:26 am**

Michael, the Eb or D# note is another 3rd (in the open position, 5th string is the root, 1st string is the 5th tone) so it would be tuned 5 cents flat.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 5:40 am**

How many of you have ever tuned straight up and tried it live with a band?

I've only tried it at home playing along with BIB tracks and was surprised how "proper" it felt even tho the the beats sounded awful when just playing the guitar.

I'm not saying I advocate it, just wondering if you guys judge it by how the steel sounds playing it by itself and never try it in the real world?

bob

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 6:06 am**

Bob Snelgrove wrote:How many of you have ever tuned straight up and tried it live with a band?

I've only tried it at home playing along with BIB tracks and was surprised how "proper" it felt even tho the the beats sounded awful when just playing the guitar.

I'm not saying I advocate it, just wondering if you guys judge it by how the steel sounds playing it by itself and never try it in the real world?

bob

That is how I ended up tuning by ear, beats out. Straight up tuning only worked for me when I was going for that sour, annoying, twangy , keeping it real, out of tune Pedalsteel sound that the alt country guys are into. When I moved on to gigs that pay I had to try to sound clear , sweet and in tune.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 6:28 am**

Bob Hoffnar wrote:
Bob Snelgrove wrote:How many of you have ever tuned straight up and tried it live with a band?

I've only tried it at home playing along with BIB tracks and was surprised how "proper" it felt even tho the the beats sounded awful when just playing the guitar.

I'm not saying I advocate it, just wondering if you guys judge it by how the steel sounds playing it by itself and never try it in the real world?

bob
That is how I ended up tuning by ear, beats out. Straight up tuning only worked for me when I was going for that sour, annoying, twangy , keeping it real, out of tune Pedalsteel sound that the alt country guys are into. When I moved on to gigs that pay I had to try to sound clear , sweet and in tune.

Thanks, Bob

I still struggle with "when is an F# not an F#, etc"

bob

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 6:29 am**

Alan Bidmade wrote:Agree that it's all in the hands (and ears). I've been using a Peterson Strobo Plus for two years, and I'm getting closer to being 'in tune' as the weeks and months go by - so it's no good just 'tuning up' to the tuner - somehow, your hands (and ears) become more sophisticated, resulting in a sweeter-sounding steel. (I can't help think, though, that there are 'unconscious' elements at work - after all, most of us have only one steel guitar that we play, so we become used to the idiosyncracies of that particular guitar and may be making tiny adjustments that wouldn't work on another guitar.) But a good tuner gets you 95% of the way there. Don't just trust the dials - trust your ears!

Agreed.

I expect that at least some people who tune straight up are making imperfect subconscious adjustments as they play because things just aren't right and their ears know it, even if their conscious mind doesn't report it.

I don't remember where I picked up the quote from and if I got it from the original source or if I got it from someone who was quoting someone else but I like the following...

Pedal steel guitar players spend half of their time tuning and spend the other half of their time playing out of tune.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 7:39 am**

Maybe the beats on a steel are more intense or somehow less musical or harsher than on other instruments? All instruments have beats, right? When I play my Mom's Steinway, I'm not thinking "Man, that G# sounds awful"!

bob

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 7:40 am**

Dale Rivard wrote:Michael, the Eb or D# note is another 3rd (in the open position, 5th string is the root, 1st string is the 5th tone) so it would be tuned 5 cents flat.

Thanks Dale, makes sense.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 7:49 am**

Bob Snelgrove wrote:All instruments have beats, right?

I think all instruments that produce polyphony anyway.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 9:04 am**

Jeff, that quote was originally Stravinsky talking about harpists

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 9:05 am**

Ian Rae wrote:Jeff, that quote was originally Stravinsky talking about harpists

Well done! Thank you.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 10:38 am**

b0b wrote: I tune the roots and 5ths 5 cents sharp, and the 3rds and 6ths 5 cents flat. Close enough for what I can hear.

Michael Coggins wrote: B0b,
I like this tuning but what do you tune your E to Eb/D# lever to (LKR)?

I think of it as a third above B, so I tune it 5 cents flat.

Also, I forgot to mention that I tune the F# strings to the 0 mark.

The F lever is double flatted (-15 cents) because it's the third of C# which is already flatted to -5 cents. Make sense?

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 11:27 am**

Thirds are intervals, not notes. It is nonsense to say that you tune an interval sharp. That's like saying my shoe size is north.

What does make sense is to say how wide you tune an interval. For example, you may a minor third 6 cents wider than equal temperament, in other words 306 cents.

On a typical E9 setup, where there is no C or B# note, you have 7 major thirds available (and 7 minor thirds, 7 fourths 7 fifths, etc.) If you choose the width of, say all 7 minor thirds, then all the other intervals are determined.

It gets a little more interesting when you can play C and/or B#.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 11:45 am**

Earnest Bovine wrote:Thirds are intervals, not notes. It is nonsense to say that you tune an interval sharp. That's like saying my shoe size is north.

My first reaction to that is that I disagree, but I suspect that I just don't understand and once I do, then I could probably agree.

When someone says something like "I think of it as a third above B, so I tune it 5 cents flat." that isn't nonsense to me at all. That is sensible and I know exactly what that sentence means. Does that relate to your claim that tuning an interval sharp (or flat) is nonsense?

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 11:50 am**

You're right of course, Earnest, but I think a lot of people understood what I meant. At least I didn't say "I tune my thirds to 439 Hz".

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 11:50 am**

Earnest, while I join you in pointing out semantic errors, especially the ones that actually cause imprecise communication, I think it does little, if any, confusion to call certain notes "major thirds."
Since I know I did it, I'll assume you raised your eyebrow at me.
Here's what I meant:
C# most often sees use in conjunction with the B pedal, so its note most often IS the third.
D# gets used as either third to the B or maj7 to the E chord (pretty sure that's the same value), so calling it a third doesn't harm communication.
A# most often gets used as the third to F#, or at least a tritone to E.
G# is maj3 to the E of the open tuning.
E#/F most often gets used as third to C#, or tritone to B.
(BTW if you were nitpicking me, I have no problem. I prefer clear communication, pointing out fuzzy speech is a good thing)

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 12:47 pm**

Jeff Scott Brown wrote: When someone says something like "I think of it as a third above B, so I tune it 5 cents flat." that isn't nonsense to me at all. That is sensible and I know exactly what that sentence means.

You may know what it means, but it could mean a dozen very different things to me.
Every note is a third above something! In fact every note is a third above at least two other notes (more than two if you include diminished thirds and augmented thirds but I won't go there!) And we do use most of those thirds on the pedal steel guitar.
In your sentence, how do you know what "it" is? Is "it" D natural, a minor third above B? Is "it" D#, a major third above B? When you say you tune "it" 5 cents flat, do you mean 5 cents flat of straight up on the meter? Do you mean 5 cents flat of a just third above the B? Do you mean 5 cents flats of an ET third above the B? And how is the B tuned in the first place?
That's why I think it makes sense to talk about the width of intervals.
The width of intervals is what we hear.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 1:04 pm**

Earnest,

That makes sense to me now. Thanks for clarifying. That is why I asked.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 1:07 pm**

Lane Gray wrote:Earnest, while I join you in pointing out semantic errors, especially the ones that actually cause imprecise communication, I think it does little, if any, confusion to call certain notes "major thirds."
Since I know I did it, I'll assume you raised your eyebrow at me.
Here's what I meant:
C# most often sees use in conjunction with the B pedal, so its note most often IS the third.
D# gets used as either third to the B or maj7 to the E chord (pretty sure that's the same value), so calling it a third doesn't harm communication.
A# most often gets used as the third to F#, or at least a tritone to E.
G# is maj3 to the E of the open tuning.
E#/F most often gets used as third to C#, or tritone to B.
(BTW if you were nitpicking me, I have no problem. I prefer clear communication, pointing out fuzzy speech is a good thing)

No, I wasn't singling you out. I've seen that fuzzy expression "tune my thirds flat" all over this Forum. It's not just semantic or fuzzy. (I shall now proceed to nitpick your first example)

C# most often sees use in conjunction with the B pedal, so its note most often IS the third.

Really? Since you mention the B pedal, I assume you mean that C#, say on string 5, is usually played with A natural on string 6. In that case C# is the major third of the chord. And therefore the player should optimize the sound of that interval A..C#. But I think we all use that C# in many other intervals, don't we?
For example don't we all play C# with G# in a C# major or minor chord? In that case C# is the root of the chord.
Don't we all play C# with F# as part of an F# chord (probably F# minor)? In that case C# is the fifth of the chord.
Don't we all play C# with F# as part of an a D maj7 chord (very similar to F# minor)? In that case C# is the major 7th of the chord.
On my guitars I have A# on the 6th string, so my C# is sometimes the minor third of A# minor chord.
Also I occasionally use C# as the 7th of D# dominant 7th.
etc etc

That's why it makes sense to me to talk about the widths of the intervals we use between particular pairs of notes. To describe a note as a "third" is fuzzy fuzzy.

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 1:08 pm**

Earnest Bovine wrote:
Jeff Scott Brown wrote: When someone says something like "I think of it as a third above B, so I tune it 5 cents flat." that isn't nonsense to me at all. That is sensible and I know exactly what that sentence means.
In your sentence, how do you know what "it" is?

The answer to your question is that there was context when the sentence was originally used by b0b above. He as addressing a comment about Eb/D# so the "it" wasn't ambiguous. I knew what he meant by "it".

Posted: **24 Oct 2014 1:14 pm**

OK, I just took out the Emmons PP guitar and will attmpt to get it in tune.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Tuning 440?

temperamental tuning?

My tunning for over 30 years playing professionaly.