The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 10:04 am**

Bobbe wrote:

However, good hands won't make up for a sucky sounding guitar...

The cynic in me always remembers that Bobbe is in the business of selling steel guitars. So, I respectfully disagree.

Every instrument has its own sound. If you have talent, skill, knowledge, whatever you want to call it in your brain, in your heart, and in your hands, then you can bring out that sound. The quality of the music produced is in no way related to the sound produced by the instrument. You create the music.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 7:16 pm**

I'm not going to dignify this with a responce. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 29 March 2003 at 07:17 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 29 March 2003 at 07:59 PM.]

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 7:34 pm**

Is this how you explain your tone?
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 29 March 2003 at 07:35 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 29 March 2003 at 08:00 PM.]

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 9:14 pm**

Bobby, if what you say is true then why do you use the equipment that you use? I've made three lap steels and one console and whatever you use from the nut material to the bridge material all makes a difference. I will agree that a professional like my uncle, who has played in a band his whole life can make any of my steels sound better than me, who spends way too much time making them than instead of learning how to play them. I used a EMG Select pickup on one of my six string lap steels and it sucked. I changed it out with a Kent Armstrong and it sounded great. I've changed string brands and got a better sound. The only amp I have is a cheap 40 watt Omnifex. The console that I just finished has a Jerry Wallace pickup and my uncle the pro really liked it. I've never had another pickup on this guitar to compare it to. Although I think a better amp, volume pedal(which I don't have), and maybe a real stainless or chrome bar instead of the homemade regular steel bar that I have would improve my tone, I will have to agree that the best thing for me to do would be to quit making guitars and learn to actually play them. By the way as for as tone goes, whoever played steel on the early Hank Williams albums has got the ultimate tone with an awesome groan. None of my guitars sound like that. Is that me or my guitars?

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 9:19 pm**

b0b, you dissappoint me. Yes Bobbe sells guitars but he does sell a lot of different brands, not just his personal favorite(s). In fact I bought a guitar from him that I think it's safe to say is one of his least favorite sound-wise, probably is one of the brands he considers "sucky sounding" but he acknowledges that for what I could afford to spend and since I'm not a Nashville studio big-shot it was an appropriate choice. At no time did he pressure me to buy something I couldn't afford, although it may have been a better steel. I don't believe that Bobbe's business of selling guitars has anything to do with what he's saying about tone. He stated his beliefs based on his experience and what he considers good tone, period.

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 9:25 pm**

"The quality of the music produced is in no way related to the sound produced by the instrument."

I can't even believe you'd say that. A friend of mine plays orchestra violin, says a symphony violinist can't even be taken seriously unless he's playing at least a $30,000 violin. I dunno...but I guess there's probably gotta be some reason all those high-class musicians play 200-300 year old violins worth actual fortunes and not $400 fiddles. Or are you saying they only play them because they can afford them and tone has nothing to do with it? Perlman on a cheap fiddle would still be great, but would it be the same quality of music as on a Strad? Would any cheap fiddle inspire him to play the same as he plays a fine violin? I doubt it.....so the quality wouldn't be the same......or does this "no way related to the sound produced by the instrument" rule only apply to steel? How so?
[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 29 March 2003 at 10:09 PM.]

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 9:28 pm**

I'm confussudde

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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 9:43 pm**

George, two guys here, Bobby and Bobbe, I'm the second one, not the one Wayne is talking to. Does this help. I'm almost confused myself! I, Bobbe play steel guitars and I Bobbe sell steel guitars. I only sell what I believe in. If I ever sell what I don't believe in, I'll tell you that I don't believe in it and it will be sold cheap!

Example, I just sold a Steel guitar that I didn't believe in on this forum last week,
Very good condition , single 10, 3-1 and it went for $99.95. Was it worth more? YES! I'm sure I could have gotten four hundred dollars for it, but I didn't believe in it, I personally didn't like the brand or the model. I want to have the reputation of being honest about what I sell, If it's bad, you'll know it cuz I'll tell ya". And it will be cheap. I try not to ever get this kind and model of guitar but,I do, once in a while, and it WILL be near free when it leaves here.

Just because I sell guitars, you don't HAVE TO "respectfully disagree" with me.
When does someone that sells guitars, or anything for that matter have to be "respectfully disagreed with"????? Does being a saleman disqualify me from being a good judge of tone? I guess arguing all day selling stuff hurts my ears!(put this in the humor section)

Your buddy,
Bobbe (no ear salesman) Seymour [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 29 March 2003 at 09:53 PM.]

Posted: **29 Mar 2003 10:22 pm**

Wayne, Don Helms played with Hank Williams, here's a link to a page about him.
http://www.well.com/user/wellvis/donhelms.html

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 5:06 am**

And Mr. Don STILL gets that mournful tone. It's a real treat to be able to meet him and hear him tell his account of his many years with several members of the Hank Williams family. He plays many of the steel shows around the country. Check him out -- he is the real deal.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 7:54 am**

Thanks for the info and link on Don Helms. I'll really have to check him out.

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 10:04 am**

So much for putting a dead horse to rest.

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 10:21 am**

Bobby, if what you say is true then why do you use the equipment that you use? I've made three lap steels and one console and whatever you use from the nut material to the bridge material all makes a difference.

I'm not saying that there isn't a difference in the sound from different materials and different instruments. I'm saying that the quality of the music comes from the player, not from the instrument used.

Consider the fact that Bobbe Seymour himself once toured with a Sho-Bud Maverick, a guitar that is almost universally considered a piece of junk. The fact that he is a great musician is what made this possible. The quality of the music does not start or end with the instrument. It comes from the player.

To answer your question, I have 3 pedal steels because I play multiple tunings. I play a D-10 for country gigs and an S-12 for rock gigs. The other S-12 is experimental. I have two amps for different sized gigs (40 watts vs. 100 watts). Actually, I believe that the choice of amp affects tone more than the choice of guitar, but that's a topic for the Electronics section of the Forum.

To me, the bottom line is that the quality of the music comes from the player, not from the guitar. If I'm not playing the right notes at the right time, no amount of money spent on equipment is going to fix it.

To turn Bobbe's quote on its side: a good guitar won't make up for sucky sounding hands.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 30 March 2003 at 10:43 AM.]

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 10:31 am**

The quality of music comes from everything, not just two or three things. The better EVERYTHING is the better the music will sound. My Maverick sorta sucked on that Lynn Anderaon job but it weighed 17 lbs in the case. At the rodeos we played and such, it was the perfect horn for the gig.
But, everything matters, but a good push pull Emmons goes a long way to making a tough job easier.

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 10:36 am**

Everyone needs to go back and reread Pete Burak's second post here. He hit the nail on the head. Exactly put , simply stated and easy to learn. Some players still think tone is a treble and bass thing. No, couldnt be ferther from the truth. Pete's 100% right. Just like in his playing, he listens well and learns fast. Now it's his turn to teach a lesson.
Watch this guy in the future, he's gonna' be a gudern'.

(and I tried so hard to stay off this thread)[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 30 March 2003 at 10:37 AM.]

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 11:04 am**

Tone and what makes tone different can be argued and discussed all day long and we will be just as far apart with the solution at the close of the argument as we were when we started.

Non pedal players use Jerry Byrd as a gauge for tone when playing our lap steels. Pedal players use Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, John Hughey Lloyd Green as gauges for good tone. This is neither good or bad. These are just gauges for someone else to see how close he can achieve their sound because they liked what they heard. When performing in a live situation, you strive for a "good tone" but you never seem to quite make it. The point I am trying to make is...in a live situation acceptance of a particular tone depends on how well your equipment cuts throught the mud of the other instruments and the ambient noise in that particulr emvironment. When we go out to hear Buddy Emmons and all our heros, they always seem to have a controled environment to perform in...ie, good sound systems, well informed and disciplined musicians to back them up and no drunks in you face...amd the list goes on... If you have a good professional level steel and amplification system with a delay and/or reverb...the rest is up to the player and his personal tase and touch...I dont think loading up your signal with a lot of fx can improve your tone beyond a certain point. Ask Buddy Emmons and Jerry Byrd what they are using. Technology has certainly improved since they arrived on the scene...but too many potatoes or not enough onions or vice vers can certainly destroy a good stew...and too much of this and not enough of that can be the difference between good and bad tone. Perfecting your technique and taste can do more for good tone than anything else beyond a good steel, amp and a delay/reverb. Just MHO....

.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 30 March 2003 at 11:17 AM.]

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 11:51 am**

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 1:09 pm**

Well.... I've always been one of the first to say that having all the most expensive gear in the world won't make a crappy player great. But now to be hearing some saying that the gear makes no difference at all, now I've heard everything. I guess if that's true, there are an awful lot of us who've wasted a lot money. I should've kept my first guitar, a $14.95 Stella instead of getting all those Fenders, Gibsons and Gretsches, since "the instrument has nothing to do with the quality of the music", I should be able to produce the same quality of music. I'm sure buying the more expensive instruments must be only an attempt to compensate for my lack of ability. Thanks Bobby for setting all of us straight!

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 1:52 pm**

Jim, Whew! I'm glad you spelled Bobby right! Not to be confused with Bobbe.

Well put Jim. I'm not confused anymore.
Where'd my ole' Maverick go? I knew I should have played it in Chattanooga.
Think of all the money I could have saved all these years on guitars. I think we should all get rid of what we have and all get Carter starters. No, too many knee levers on them, The Little Buddy, Maverick, Red Baron, this is all we need! Two by fours and bailing wire, all we need, it's all in the hands anyway!
Yup Jim, well I gotta' go to Home Depot, They have a sale on pine this week.
Then I'm going to the Opry house, gotta' go tell Porter that all he needs to sound like Bing Crosby is another microphone. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 30 March 2003 at 01:55 PM.]

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 4:24 pm**

My steel has lost it's tone! When I bought it it was ok ,some of the top road players where playing the brand I bought. The staff steel player on the opry started to play one,'boy what tone I had. Now he plays a different make-- I lost that tone. I need to see who is playing what, and run out and buy one Joe

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 4:35 pm**

Yea Joe, I know exatctly what you mean,I'm getting ready to call Tommy now and see what he had for dinner. I'm sure that's the only thing I'd like. I hate it when he switches resturants, makes me think where we ate last month wasn't any good! He sold his Chevvy Van about the time I bought one. Darn, now I gotta' trade again! I wish he'd settle down so I can have some order in my life!

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 4:38 pm**

Joe, Get me one also since you're going anyway. I owe you one.

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 5:26 pm**

Well....I'm real surprised some of the real "musicians" haven't spoken up. "Tone" is just that...bass, middle, treble. (Either that or every amplifier manufacturer since the beginning of time has labeled them knobs wrong!

)

"Tone" is what comes from the amp and the pickup.

"Timbre" or "particular sound characteristics based on overtones or harmonics" is what comes from the instrument, itself.

I really wish y'all would learn the difference.

Thank 'ya kindly.

(Flame suit on...fire away.)

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 6:15 pm**

Donny, I to tend to agree with you. I think perhaps we have substituted tone for timbre. I'm always on a mission for both.

Posted: **30 Mar 2003 6:47 pm**

When you listen to an MP3 file through your computer speakers, is the "quality of the music" any different from the same song coming through your stereo? Is the music worse somehow when it comes through your car speakers than it is at a live concert.

No, I don't think so. The music doesn't change. The tone changes. The quality of the sound changes. But the quality of the music doesn't depend on the equipment used to produce (or reproduce) it.

Sound comes from instruments, amplifiers and speakers. Music comes from musicians. The quality of music lies in the musician's hands, nowhere else.

That's how I hear it, anyway.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

The Steel Guitar Forum

Bobbe said tone was!!!