The Steel Guitar Forum

"I don't play a Universal because they have too many pedals for me. I've learned through experience that 5p+5k is my limit."

b0b, isn't your axe actually 5x5 "per neck"?... making the number of changes you actually have to keep track of a total of 10x10?

b0b, you are a perfect candidate for S12U!

Actually, IMHO every steel player walking the planet is a pefect candidate for S12U!


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 18 January 2003 at 11:06 AM.]</p></FONT>

But there are only 5 physical pedals and 5 levers to find with my "muscle memory", Pete. I don't have a hard time remembering which pedal does what for any tuning I'm playing. I have a hard time time finding the physical pedals and levers when the total number for the neck exceeds 5+5.

Example #1: I used to have two LKLs. I often hit one instead of the other. My left knee reflex couldn't differentiate between the two.

Example #2: I used to have 7 pedals. When I tried to go from my "home" foot position (over p2 and p3) to the inside pedals, I frequently hit the wrong one. I often had to look at my feet to get the position right. My foot-moving reflex can't reliably find those inside pedals.

This is also why I prefer a crossover, by the way. My muscle reflexes for finding the pedals and levers are the same on both necks. I shift the tuning in my head, but my body uses the same movements on both tunings.

I suppose with a lot of work I could train myself to find additional pedals or levers, but why? 5+5 is enough for anything I want to play. Sometimes I think even the 5th pedal is too much.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 18 January 2003 at 11:47 AM.]</p></FONT>

I made my statement regarding this issue by means of an extended analysis called "the future of steel", which can be found within the articles section of this forum!

In that case you'd be a perfect candidate for a S12U 5x5!

Keep the change lock (ie. crossover), and lose that unsightly 2nd neck!

To be perfectly honest, I think the reason you can't find the pedals is because you have too many steels with too many differing configurations.
This is quite likely where the short circuiting of the muscle memory lies.

The overwhelming PSG standard is D10 with plenty more than 5x5 and I just don't see many threads from D10'ers concerning hitting the wrong pedals/levers.

I do agree with you though...
Less IS more!!!

I have learned how to play both of my licks on my D-10 Zum and on my S-12U Sierra,but I must confess that I removed my 12th string off the Sierra. The larger B string simply created too much bar noise for clean studio work. It is somewhat of a paradox that the 10th string on the C6 neck of the Zum does not seem to do that. If I were able to be more introspective, I would probably discover that the shortcomings are all mine and that both guitar setups are perfect.
Did I really say that??? You will probably notice that Ernest Bovine said the same thing with only two lines of text!?!? ~~W.C.~~<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Wayne Cox on 18 January 2003 at 02:09 PM.]</p></FONT>

I tried to play a S-12U one night for about one set and it just drove crazy. I admit that was a very long time ago and I could probably handle it better now than then. I've been trying to find an inexpensive S-12 to experiment on and if I get tired of it or just can't play it I can always sell it and forget the whole thing. The one I played was an Emmons P/P and it was a hunk of guitar. Solid black and with the Crawford Cluster including the backwards one and two strings. It's no wonder I was confused. Regarding what Pete said I think he's dead on about messing with too many different set-ups. Right now I'm going back and forth between a nine pedal guitar and an eight pedal. I've got myself looking at the pedals more than I should. In the next month or so I plan to at least put the nine pedal guitar under the bed for a while so I can concentrate on just eight pedals for a while. Of course then I'll probably stumble on that S-12 and screw it all up. Lloyd Green said somewhere that you should pick a set-up and stick with it. It sure hasn't hurt him any.

For those that have trouble finding the right pedals (pedal groups), try setting some "index" pedals at slightly different heights so that you can feel them with the side of your foot. Pity the poor organ players problem with the bass pedal board!

I have 3 pedal steels, and they're all 5+5. Works for me!

My latest 12 string universal black Sierra has 9 pedals and 7 knee levers. I just removed one knee lever as I just don't use it and it gets in the way.

My puple Sierra has 8 pedals and 6 knee levers and I enjoying playing this guitar as one big tuning with no lever lock via Joe Wright's approach. The more I use it in this configuration the more comfortable it becomes.

Hey bOb: I just started using the Mesa 50/50 power amp in a new rack with a GP-100 preamp processor. WOWWWWWWWWWW!
Lenny

I saw Curley Chalker play a Fender 1000 one night while backing Hank Thompson and his great band. Curley's steel had 11 pedals. Yes 11! Never saw another one ever.

He used a Volume pedal. And his left foot could go from any pedal to any other pedal faster than a wink and as smooth as silk. Joe Wright says it and I believe it. It is just a matter of mind set and practice. ONCE you get the feel of it (it MAY warp your mind for quite a while), it is just like anything else.

The most difficult thing I have ever dealt with is 2 RKR's. But I can say that now that I have gotten over the "warp" stage, it is NO different than any other pedal or knee lever.

Patience is truly a virtue,

carl

I say don't do it unless you're crazy like me.

If you've been playing a D-10 you're probably on the right path to proficiency, or whatever, and should stay there.

I started out on a S-10 and played that for about 20 years. Really! I always loved the sound of the C6 neck but just wasn't motivated to make that change. I wanted to keep it simple.

The someone suggested I try the S12U and I did. Didn't like it right away, but I had a couple of advantages that made it work for me. On my E9 I never had the D string and did have a low E. You don't miss what you never had. I found several ways to get 6th sounds on MY E9 tuning and always played both in swing type tunes.

That made the addition of the extra 2 strings and pedals fairly painless and now I'm really enjoying the advantages of both. One huge advantage is the ability to play all sorts of rhythm chops while the guitarist is taking a solo. But that ain't all. Now, I have the boo-wah, I use it a lot. Then there's the cool voicings of major chords with low notes.

I'd say that with my style the majority of swing riffs I play are fundamentally rooted around the E9 licks I've been playing for years. I also have an E to F# change on a knee lever. I'd never be able to play the melody of songs like Right or Wrong without that change. It adds another 9th voicing to the major triad. Some cool unisons too.

OK, I know you're getting bored. Remember I told you don't do this yourself unless you absolutely have to. You'll get like me and won't be able to turn back. --JR

Fate worse than death, eh John????


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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

I can adapt to anything in my music room, but on the bandstand it's hard for me to recover from that momentary hestation when I have to decide which LKL or which inside pedal to go to. That's why I keep it at 5+5. Simpler is better, for me anyway.

I keep thinking that 4 pedals might be even better than 5!

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

b0b, Zane Beck thought four was better too.

Right Larry!

I don't wish this on anyone except my best friends. Whoa, let's don't start this up again. I may have to put on my flame suit.

And I agree with B0B and the Bobby. Keep it simple. My setup has 6 pedals and 5 KLs. That's all I want. I'm just NOW getting the hang of the 3 extra pedals and I've had this beast for about 4 years. Getting used to the extra strings was easier. The hard part was mentally moving the inside G# and B toward the front. Everybody knows those belong in the middle!

First time I sat down behind an S12U I was hopeless. Nothing was in the right place. That's why I don't advocate it for folks who are used to the D-10. You'll be real confused for weeks. Think handicapped persons adapting after a crippling injury! Well maybe not that bad. I do think novice players should consider it. The advantages are, to me obvious. (I'll spare you the sales pitch.) --JR

I feel like Bobby Lee about this. 5 pedals and 5 knee levers on a S12 does it all for me.
It is true you may need more, if you are copying "Licks". I just don't get into much of that...al