The Steel Guitar Forum

Rather than disagreement, there are two overlapping but different conversations going on here (as usual). Probably everyone on the Forum agrees with Johan, Jim, Al et al. that soul and technique play an important role in how a pedal steel sounds overall. However, no one can deny that purely mechanical and electrical factors provide the basic raw material with which the soulful, technical artist must work. That part is what Donny and Mike and Chas and b0b are trying to talk about (without, I think, meaning to deny that each player working with the basic elements can end up with very different overall sounds). It might be helpful if we could agree on two separate terms, and how to use them -- e.g. say that Donny is talking about "tone" and Johan is talking about "sound" -- or vice versa, as they are both pretty vague words, and there probably will be a big argument about which one better applies to which. Maybe we could refer to the subset of electro-mechanical [tone] vs. the totality of [sound]. We'd still probably get two overlapping but different conversations on the same thread. Onward into 2003....<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 06 January 2003 at 05:00 AM.]</p></FONT>

that tone is what happens when you've got your technique together well enough that your soul comes through.

Jim, you sure do know how to settle a discussion. Without soul coming through, tone and sound are out the window.

TONE AND SOUND are in the soul regardless of the instrument.

Charles Tilley.

I think we are talking about two different tones.

1. The natural tone a particular instrument and amplifier has.

2. The tone that one gets from his technique.

It is the combination of these two that produces the overall tone. A player with bad technique will not produce as good a tone out of a good guitar as a player with good technique.

Sometimes I think Buddy Emmons could get tone from bailing wire stretched across a couple of two by fours!

Terry

Tone is what you get when you combine equipment and technique. Soul is the phrasing and voicings (including tone)used by the player to express his personal feelings. Our instrument is just an extension of our own personal feelings, our "sound" and "effects" are devices we use to enhance our feelings. We refer to our hero's sound as a gauge for our own sound. I have heard better tone from an old PV 500 or Session 400 and a Boss DD-3 than most players can get with a "rack" full of "stuff." Joe Turner, who is a regular performer at the Saluda, S.C. jam, uses a refurbished Marlin and old Session 400 circa 1978 and an Eleco-Harmonix Clone for effects and I would put his tone and technique in a class with the best of them.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 06 January 2003 at 09:53 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>It might be helpful if we could agree on two separate terms, and how to use them</SMALL>

Actually, you only need one word. However, the defintion of the word "tone" varies according to the reference. If the reference is to a piece of equipment ("Emmons p/p has great tone"), then it is strictly the physics of the instrument. If it refers to a player ("Buddy Emmons has great tone") then it is the juxtaposition of the equipment and technical ability of the player. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 06 January 2003 at 10:59 AM.]</p></FONT>

If we take as read that a great player's tone is enhanced by excellent technique, if that player was incapacitated in some way (say, drunk),and his technique suffered, would his tone also suffer? I'm not saying that some of you guys have first-hand experience of this, but it would be interesting to hear any anecdotes.

<SMALL>(each human absorbs 1 sabine of sound)</SMALL>

what's measured in sabine??? It' s a women's name in Germany...???

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martin abend Pedal-Steel in Germany
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 | Regal RD45 | fender hotrod deluxe

The Sabine keeps the Coon @sses on the east side of the river where they belong. Unfortunately for me, there is no tone in my hands - only in my head. I don't think I'll get the tone I desire until I get to heaven. Until then, "acceptable tone" will have to do - which uses the "Cohen" as the standard of measurement.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Randy Pettit on 06 January 2003 at 03:31 PM.]</p></FONT>

I've finally attained immortality! Yaaay!

The tone that comes from the instrument and amp can be altered when the power in the wall-plug drops from 110 to 100 or even as low as 90.I used to play at a club that had a rock room next door. When the band started to play on the other side, the lights would dim and the PA and amps would lose highs and punch.
-Andy

NO it is NOT all in the hands. BE said right on this forum,

"The reason I went back to Emmons' after playing my Sierra was I had a sound in my head that I could not get out of the Sierra".

That is good enough for me.

carl

Just for the sake of discussion, do you think you can tell anything about someones personality just by listening to them play? This would only pertain to players whose abilities are at a level that would let their personalities or "soul" come through in their playing. I feel like I can tell something about a person just by listening to them play. Are they nervous and high strung, laid back, melancholic? Think about it, someone that you know well that is a "world class" player. Does his playing mimic his personality?

I'm gonna jump in here. Maybe I shouldn't.
When I play, I can tell almost immediately
whether I'm gonna have a good gig, or just a fair one.
I can't explain this in real comprehensible terms.

I just hang on to the bar, and like the OUIJA
board, I just let her go where she wants to.

You know what I mean.

I get really great tone when I grab strings
away from the pick-up, and play with determination, and try to milk the sweet sound of the steel.

That's it for now.....PLAY SOFTLY AND CARRY
A BIG SHTICK.

Chipsee

Randy - ABSOLUTLY! This is something that I picked up on a few years back, with guitar players. I thought everyone in the world had figgured this out but me, but you're the only other person that I've ever heard mention it.
I started noticing that the different guitar men that we had, played just like their personality. One very good one, that did a fair amount of work around the "Opry", was so hyper that you couldn't be around him. That was the way that he played too.
The best that I ever worked with - considered by pretty much all to be "The Man" in Indianapolis, was the most laid back, easiest guy to be around in the world.
I suppose we're all like that, but all of the "good ones" that I've ever been around, I have found to play just like their personality - even more-so than their mood...
Jimmie

Another observation, as most people age their personalities "mellow out", and their musical taste does likewise. We can listen to our favorite players "mature" through decades of recordings and make these distinctions. Some, when they're young and eager, like to play fast and aggresive, and then as they age, prefer a more laid back or "emotional" approach. I know this is the catagory I fall into. I now prefer complex chords and slower melodies that I wouldn't have cared for 20 years ago. This is who
"I am" now. My points may be a little bit of a "thread jack", but I believe tone is more than certain frequencies with certain parameters applied to them. I don't want to be a "steel player", but rather a musician who's insturment happens to be a steel guitar.

One of the reasons I've always resented "gear" (by which I mainly mean amplification gear) is that it's so hard (and expensive) to control. You're often let down by your gear. I hate that. It seems that a good player can get his own sound on any decently-maintained acoustic instrument, but there are so many extra variables with an amp, and gadgets plugged into the amp, and speakers, and all.

I heard a great sax player play on a cheap horn with a plastic reed once, and I commented to a friend of his (also a sax player) that he still sounded just like himself, and the friend said "yeah, but only he knows how hard he's working."

I agree that the sound that's in your head is by far the most important thing.
Only you know how hard you have to work to get it.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 10 January 2003 at 10:32 AM.]</p></FONT>

A "good set of hands" can make even a bad guitar sound good, but a bad set of hands can't always make a good guitar sound good!

...now, a good set of hands and a good guitar...well...that's another story completely!

Dave

<SMALL>amplification gear is ...hard...to control.</SMALL>

I wouldn't say that. I think one has to learn how to control it, and that takes a lot of practise, but once you have the skill down, it's not a big deal.

I played acoustic guitar for many years before I went electric. I'd say it took me about 2 years to really learn how to properly use my gear.

Every time I sell a new steel amp to a customer, I worry that it may not satisfy the buyer. I have confidence in our products, but being a steel player myself, I know how hard it is to please a steel player when it comes to tone. Especially if the buyer has played the same old steel amp out on jobs for many years, he will quickly get frustrated trying to make the new amp sound similar to his old familure amp. Manufacturers tend to listen to "name" players when designing their products, then try to market this same over-designed, top-professional product to the hobby-player and semi-pro player. The results are products that have the ability to sound top-notch, but are so difficult to "dial-into", or don't sound their very best until driven up to high volume levels, that the average player quickly gives up on. Then it's not long before the new amp is advertised for sale, and he's out looking for another vintage amp that he "thinks" he will sound better on. Sorry to drift a little off Mike's topic, just ventilating a little. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Duane Dunard on 13 January 2003 at 08:01 AM.]</p></FONT>