The Steel Guitar Forum

Thank you Jody. I would get up and take a bow, but er, well, you know....

Very interesting....

Sorry to say, I think the SUITS made the best decision, when you consider SUITS are only looking after "The Bottom Line".

I suspect a fine Steel like the 210 would have lost money for the company.

Too bad business has to run like this.

We're lucky to have fine Steels made these days by people who care.

Those Fender SUITS are probably long gone from the music business, now with Enron, or K-Mart.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 21 April 2002 at 03:25 PM.]</p></FONT>

Does anyone know the List and Street price for a PS 210.

Plug it into a Price Index Calculator and see what you get.

Wow, thanks for that price index site Joey.

Howard
I think you have nice legs,,,I dont care what they say.

Joey,,,,retail price of the PS 210 was $1,500.00 for the guitar and $80.00 addt'l for the case. Total retail $1,580.00

There were many options on the 210,,,,example
standard model was 8 pedals 1 knee lever.
You would have to specify L Knee L or R knee
R. The more knee levers you would add would then limit your floor pedals.

There were 15 various combinations of knee lever and pedals available. The least floor pedals were 5 and that would include 4 knee
levers. That was the way the guitar was designed.

Of no importance to your question,,,,each model or combination of floor pedals and or knee levers had a different ordering code of numbers,,,,example a 210 with 8 floor pedals and 1 knee lever was designated as a 14-1425.

This drove me crazy,,I was to order a guitar with 8 pedals and 1 knee lever,,,,It HAD to be a 14-1425,,,and so on up to 14-1439...do you get the picture???

Gotta run,,any more questions?? I will try to address them. PS NO K Mart and Walmart do not have the quality of suits that CBS issued. If you wanted a suit you would have to order it by number,,,example 1 brown suit size 40 regular would be,,129 99 87 00909,,,and thats with out pants

One thing I hated abut those pants,,,,were the zipper,,the crotch was soooooo loooooong
the knot of my tie got caught in the zipper as well as my "adams apple",,,If you had to whizz it was a Loooong way down,,,many times
I almost didnt make it...but there was room for a "can" inside the pants if necessary.

Howard need some 505 Levis or Wrangler Cowboy cut underwear?? let me know,,,I can send you a few pair,,,,just specify the item number of the jeans you would want.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 21 April 2002 at 05:56 PM.]</p></FONT>

Yeah--here's a question for any/all of you. What does this guitar sound like? I sure know the sound of Ralph Mooney's guitar--there's no mistaking the sound of the old Fenders. Does this sound like a Fender? Or does it sound more like a modern PSG?

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and fer chissakes, Howard, put some pants on!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jon Light on 21 April 2002 at 05:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jon
To my ears,,,,,It was not the typical Fender
sound that we know,,,,it does sound great and has great features,,,,but to these ears it is not the sound of the Fender as we know it, It has its own distinctive sound.

CBS at this point made the right decision,,they had their primary interest in the Fender Rhodes product line and all interests as well as commitment finacially was directed at the Rhodes Keyboard line. I myself would have liked to have seen Gene's guitar produced,,,as for his question as to what was the street price??? how could anyone
tell,,,the water had not reached its level,there were only app 15 made,,,how can you put a selling to the customer price? at such a premature time. It was worth the retail price,,,,but you know NYC,,,,,did you ever see anything sell for retail,,,,thats why Howard has no pants,,,he wants them "wholesale" have I got a deal for you..step in here "mister" understand what Im talkin about mister??

BTW as soon as CBS aqquired Fender the name
Fender Rhodes was changed to "Rhodes" and the Fender name was omitted,,,the reason??? its another long story...

If you have to know,,,I can tell it,,,but I beleive most of my questions have been addressed, except for my buddy Howard who is undressed....but I do think he has nice legs
and they are adjustable as well

As a jazz pianist in my previous life I had a Rhodes--bought it around '72. I called it a Fender Rhodes but I can't recall now what it said on it. I quickly learned to hate this axe. But my problem was that I was an acoustic piano picker and I got the Rhodes purely for portability. I called it the aqualung--the sound, to my ears was "glug glug" as was the action--like playing neck deep in molasses.
In retrospect, though, there has been so much really excellent music made on the Rhodes by players approaching it as a distinct instrument rather than just a piano substitute. I noted the passing of Mr. Rhodes a couple of years ago and I tipped my hat.

Hi HowardR:

You should really wear some pants when you sit behind your Fender PS 210 because you may get seriously injured by one of its inner knee levers.

Hi SGF:

My Fender PS 210 is sitting in my living room as a "table" to put newspapers and magazines on.

I had the guitar up at Sierra Steel Guitar in Portland, Oregon for almost a year (they were going to do some repairs and add three knee levers) but as it turned out, nothing was done to it.

Now I'm pondering whether I should just get rid of it or continue attempting to get things done on it?

The guitar needs the following:

1. A case;

2. The fretboards need to be reglued to the guitar;

3. One of the legs is loose in the body and it needs a helicoil (is this spelled correctly?) installed to reestablish the bond with the threads on the leg;

4. The guitar's only knee lever is broken on it shaft and has to be replaced (the knee lever mechanism is OK however);

5. The place where the strings attach on the keyless tuner suffer from metal fatigue whereby the little tips that act as guides for the string snap off very easily;

6. The metal cover that was attached to the pedal board is off and has to be reattached in some fashion;

7. The legs need to be shorten about 1-1/2 inches because the instrument must have been designed for a very tall person and it's about that much taller than my Fender 1000; and

8. Many of the chrome parts (pedals and pedal rods) are rusted and need to be rechromed.

I was hoping that this instrument would replace my trusty Fender 1000 but I'm not sure now. (If my wife, Kathy, has her way, the instrument will be history.)

I enjoyed reading this post about the Fender PS 210 and I'm glad to see Gene Fields posting to the SGF. Before I bought this instrument I spoke to him on the telephone and his strong suggestion was for me NOT to purchase this instrument and get a GFI pedal steel guitar instead. Maybe that was good advise I should have heeded?

------------------
Regards,
Al Gershen
Grants Pass, Oregon. USA
Fender 1000 (1956),
Fender PS 210 (1971) &
Gibson Electraharp EH-820 (1960)
Al's Photos at http://www.alsphotographs.com

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Al Gershen on 21 April 2002 at 07:56 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jon
Harold Rhodes had a new contract with CBS on
a royalty basis rather than a salary as he previously had with Fender Musical Intsruments. He was dis-enchanted with the little or no help regarding his "baby" to get off the ground.

CBS paid particular attention to the Rhodes
project and had R&D further their re-doing much of the Piano 73 suitcase model as well as the 73 "stage piano" as it was reffered to. The suitcase model had the amp enclosed as the Stage Piano had no amp.

There were numerous problems with the Rhodes
piano and beleive me it drove Harold crazy.
The sound you refer to is well know as a bogus sound,,Harold and I spent hours and hours with dealers and artists to get feedback on the likes and dislikes of the Rhodes piano's.

It was Chick Corea and Herby Hancock and Joe Zawunal that were supporters of the Rhodes piano,,,it was players of that calibre who helped the Rhodes become one of the best sellers in the Fender(CBS) lineup.

You have no idea how hard Harold worked on his project and he never ever stopped trying to improve on what you refer to as a clunky
sound.

He was well aware of its shortcomings. Columbia records produced an LP featuring the
Rhodes Piano back in 65 right after the CBS takeover.

They wanted a "Ken Griffen" type sound,,,but
rather than the Organ that Griffen was known for,,,,they used the Rhodes, Griffen had a steel guitar as part of his instrumentation
for years and years.

Since I was the Fender "do it all guy" I was
called in by Goddard Leiberson to bring the Rhodes into Columbia records and set the session up. I was asked to play steel on the
date which consisted of , Ludwig Flato on Rhodes,Ray Brown on bass and Bucky Pizzerelli on guitar as well as Mottola on lead and rythhm guitar. I played the ironing board. I had to iron out a few things. Howard
you should have been there I would have ironed your underwear out for you. You would have a pair of underwear you could have been proud of not just those "Jockey" boxers you have on.

I wont go into detail as it is a very complicated story and one that I will address
in my book. I have the original tapes of the session made at that time and there were numerous problems with the Piano. The LP was
"canned" by request of Harold Rhodes,,it was from that point on that CBS made a 100% effort to make things as right as they could for the Rhodes Piano.

What went on that night at Columbia recording studio is an important part of my
book,,and a story that many will not beleive.
Some of it is hillarious as I look back now,but was a heartbreaker as well as breaking other things as well,,,,you dig?
I have sent Howard a copy of this un-issued tape with myself playing on the session and Iam certain he has heard what I refer to.

I spoke with Harold the night before he passed on a few years back. He had little or no family left. His much "younger than himself" wife Dolores passed away back in 1978,,,she was a wonderful person and her death was "untimely" and should have been prevented except for the ignorance of a physician she had kept her faith in. Dolores was 42 years young. .

She was a local gal from NJ and a great person. This devastated Harold. His work was his life,,other than occasional "tennis" as an outlet,,his life was the Rhodes Piano.

He had children but they were distanced from Harold for many years. He passed on alone in
a rest home in Fullerton California.

To see a wonderful dedicated man leave as he did broke my heart and others who have known
him. He had everyhing a person could ask for
but his personal life after his wife's passing made him a shell of a man other than his love for his Piano project.

I think most all of you will enjoy my expieriences and stories of Harold and myself
during the Pre CBS days as well as the ressurection of the Rhodes Piano after the CBS takover.

He did it the hard way my friend and no one was more critical of the Rhodes Piano than
Harold Rhodes himself was.

To read your comments rang a bell,,,as I do know what you make reference to as far as that "sound" no one,,but no one was more aware of it than Harold.

I will address all the work,,,,fun,,,,and hardships that Harold undured during those years at Fender and CBS.

He was a supporter of mine and was completly
upset after my resignation from Fender. I have many memories of him and letters from way back when he first started with Fender back in 1954 with his Piano Bass.

He was ridiculed by many early on,,,,but he recieved his due after the CBS takeover.
But not to the extent of self satisfaction as he went to his grave an unhappy man,,,as he was still not pleased with his Rhodes Piano.

Harold went on to Roland after his CBS contract ran out, but his happy and unhappy days were his days with Fender.He was one hell of a human being, we spent a lot of time
with Henry Goldrich owner of Mannys Music on W 48th St,,and Harold was a frequent visitor
to the Carnegie Delicatessen along with myself and Henry...we even took Chic Corea with us a few times.

Oh the heck with it,,,I cant tell those stories here,,,,you will know who did it at the end before you read it,.

Was it the butler??? Well,,,when I can I will attempt to entertain those of you who will enjoy the personal things I had had the
privledge of being part of during my life as
a Fender "do everything guy"

Those were days that I cannot express in words in any shape or form,,but I will try to, in some small way give you all an idea of what it was like being a Fender "do everthing
guy in the "Big Apple".

I promised you a tape,,,I didnt forget,,I will somehow get one to you and you will hear
what I made refernce to regarding the Rhodes
Piano.

Harold was a "prince" of a guy,, Most all of those great people are gone now,,but they will live on in this "do everthing" guys life forever. I will get a tape to you, I have been on the DL for a bit here with a small health problem,,,,,but for you,,my friend I will do it,,,,one favor though,,,say hello to all those chicks (no not Corea) but the chicks in Williamsburg.Ask
them if they still remember me.

Be well,,,,I have your mailing address.......
Get a pair of pants for Howard Please. Edited for spelling and I still see more errors,,,I need a secretary,,, dont make fun of me,,,,you may be old someday yourself.

So will Howard,,,,,,wonder what his legs will
look like then... PS I kept in touch with Harold over the years on a weekly basis by telephone,,,,he is missed. I have never heard an unkind word spoken about Harold Rhodes.
Copyright (c) by Jody Carver 2002
All Rights Reserved<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 11 January 2003 at 11:24 AM.]</p></FONT>

Jon
Your mention that your Rhodes sounded poorly
for a "better word" ,,if you purchased it in
1972,,it should have been "modified" long before that.

Any and all modifications were done in the field,,,some had to be returned to Fullerton
California. I have no idea where your piano was purchased,,some dealers had a piano in inventory without a modification,,,every dealer was sent a mailing regarding this so called mod,,or re-call,,.

I have no idea as to why your particular piano had a bad sound,,,by 1973,,most all modifications had been made.

If your piano was bought new,,it should have been modified, if it were used and bought from a dealer..it would have been modified at no cost to the buyer.

All 73 suitcase piano's had a new system of tone bar design,,,whereas the hammer was adjustable to increase or lessen the "percussive" effect allowing a much more
desired tone.The amp design of the 73 suitcase was re-designed as well.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 22 April 2002 at 08:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

Jody . . . MERCY . . your on a roll.Talk about long stories, you never told the one about . . .Oh . . better not.

Send me an e-mail.
All those CBS clowns (suits)pretty dumb for sure. But there were good ones like forrest, George and Bill Carson.

Carl West
Emmons LaGrandlll
Fender 2000 . . . with chrome pedals thanks to G. Feilds

Hey Jody. I lost track of this thread and didn't see your most recent posts until now. Let me clarify by saying, most emphatically, that the Rhodes piano was all wrong FOR ME. I came to really respect the picking of Hancock, Corea, and Zawinul but it wasn't the direction of my focus or the focus of my direction at the time. So the Rhodes, for me, was just a poor substitute for an acoustic piano. It is very much its own instrument but it couldn't satisfy, in sound or in action, someone looking for the experience of playing a Baldwin (I just mention that because the greatest piano I ever played happened to be a fine old Baldwin). I got my Stage Rhodes (I can't remember but I suspect it was 73 keys considering the state of my finances back then) at Wurlitzer music in Boston. The only available adjustments I recall were the sliding coils to adjust intonation. I sure would have liked to be able to mess with the percussive characteristics. But I repeat--I doubt that even the most perfect Rhodes would have suited me at the time. Oh--and I must add that I played it thru the only amp I had--an Ampeg SB-12 flip-top bass amp. Not at all the correct rig for this piano and certainly partly responsible for the aqualung sounds.
I wish I still had the Rhodes, just for the hell of it, and I wish I still had the amp instead of the $40 my local music store in Woodstock NY gave me a couple of years later when I needed to eat (silly me). And I wish I still had the Farfisa mini-compact and......

oh--and I've got a Tony Mottola story for you, Jody, when I find the time.

And Al Gershen---have you considered contacting Gene Fields about bringing your guitar up to snuff? Who would be more appropriate?

Hi Jon Light:

"And Al Gershen---have you considered contacting Gene Fields about bringing your guitar up to snuff? Who would be more appropriate?

I did contact Gene Fields before I decided to purchase the guitar and he did not seem interested in doing any work on this guitar. He suggested that I not buy the instrument and instead purachase one of his newer GSI pedal guitars.

I guess I have nostalgia in my blood and I opted for the PS 210.




------------------
Regards,
Al Gershen
Grants Pass, Oregon. USA
Fender 1000 (1956),
Fender PS 210 (1971) &
Gibson Electraharp EH-820 (1960)
Al's Photos at http://www.alsphotographs.com

Great stories! Gotta throw my two bits in as an avid Rhodes freak. What the Rhodes lacks in easy-playability, it more than doubles in tone and feel. It isnt easy tracking lightning fast runs on an old 1973 suitcase, so what you lack in speed you are forced to make up w/ funk and groove. I spent most of my keybord life playing cheap Japanese plastic non-weighted keys, and in the 2 years I have had a real Rhodes, my writing and playing has gotten so much stronger. Harold Rhodes was a genius!!! And it sounds like he was a pretty decent human being!!!!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Thank you. He was more than a good guy,,,,he was a GREAT MAN. Happy that you are a Rhodes guy,,,,I was, and always will be. Your comments would have made Harold "Happy". I
thank you on his behalf. Iam proud to have had him as my friend.

Jody

Jody, I just posted this link on the Rhodes User Group. They obviously hold Harold in a high regard. If you ever feel like giving a little more dish on the Rhodes Piano story, I am sure they would love to hear it.

Here are some links to cool Rhodes sites:
www.badrat.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rhodes/
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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Matt Steindl on 27 April 2002 at 06:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

Not to turn the PSG forum into a RHODES worship site, but for those not in the know, here is a memorial for Harold Rhodes:

On December 17, 2000 the music world lost one of its greatest innovators, Harold B. Rhodes. Harold's major achievements, among many, were the design and construction of the Rhodes Electric Piano, and the Rhodes Method teaching course.

The Rhodes piano was, and still is, the most recognized sound in modern music today. It is heard on albums by Steely Dan, The Doors, Stevie Wonder, Styx, and almost everyone who uses keyboards has sat behind one at one time or another. The Rhodes' ethereal, bell-like sound was the result of his work to bring the piano into the electric world populated by guitars and basses. The difference was that this piano was designed by a pianist. Harold was an accomplished musician, and this was primarily the reason that the Rhodes Method of piano teaching is so well used and liked. His gift was knowing what should sound right.

I personally worked with Harold for quite a few years, and he was a friend to my family even longer than this, having worked under my father for many years. I feel his loss on a deeper level, as he was my childhood idol. He was a figure that I admired, and I felt compelled to continue with the Rhodes legacy, even after he had dropped from the proverbial "radar screen". My tribute to his memory will be the ongoing support of the Rhodes pianos by the continued operation of my company, Major Key. We will be following in the shadow of this tremendous man.

It is said that legends never die, so this is really only a brief interlude, a coda in music terms, as we will meet again. We do things every day that set chords in motion that will reverberate throughout time..... I bet they will be played on a Rhodes.

Goodbye Harold, for now...

John R. McLaren


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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Matt
Thank you for that nice post you submitted by John McClaren.

Mr. McClaren was former president of Yamaha & then went on to Fender Musical Instruments as President,.

He then left CBS Fender to form his own corporation BBE,,,,,they also own Leo Fenders
G&L guitars etc etc,,,.

Mr. McClaren is a nice man as well, and I'm happy to see that he has taken a livley interest in continuing the work of Harold Rhodes.

And to think this all started when I first met Harold in New Yotk City at a NAMM show where he unveiled his 32 key Piano Bass back in the summer of 1954.

He was dismayed by the lack of interest on behalf of the Music dealers,,,and had many times wanted to quit.He had many times told me he felt he was wasting his time, I have to praise CBS for taking the step to support
Harold and his project. Fender did not have the finances prior to the CBS takeover to further Harold's interests.

Fender was a guitar oriented business and Harold often times thought he took a back seat to the Fender guitars etc,,which he did and rightfully so,,,but the day of reckoning
came when CBS took over Fender, that was the
best thing that could have happened to Harold.


With encouragement by myself and a few others
who took a personal interest in Harold and his "dream" we told him to hang on.

In this Forum,,under Fender Stories somewhere
in the archives of past threads,,,you may be able to find an incident that invloves myself with Harold in New York City,,,it is quite amusing. If you cant find it ,,,maybe I can and I will either e mail the link to you or post it on the Forum.

I think you will like it. There are 24 hours
in a day,,Harold worked 25 hours in that time
frame,,,,a dedicated man,,,like none I have ever met.

Thanks for your contribution to a good friend of mine. I appreciate your comments of praise for Harold. Thanks again my friend

Jody
copyright (C) by Jody Carver 2002 all rights
reserved.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 11 January 2003 at 05:02 PM.]</p></FONT>

Jody, I found the NYC Chick Corea story and forwarded it to my buds on the Rhodes user group. HILLARIOUS!!!!!!!!

PLEASE check:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rhodes/

And post some good Harold Rhodes stories, or any insight on the genesis of the Rhodes piano on there. All of the Rhodes freaks would love it!!!!!!! You are truly a natural and gifted storyteller!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

I think Howard looks pretty good, but the tie is supposed to be MAROON!!!!

Is it just me, or does it appear that the radius of the bridge on that PS210 is extremely small compared to most other psg's? If so, I would think that factor would affect the sound at least somewhat.

Those Fender keyless tuning heads look really interesting and different from most other keyless heads (at least to my untrained eye). Very interesting posts!!