Why CFC?.....MSA explains.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Nov 2002 3:44 pm

Jimmy Gibson:

I too started on a Red Baron. It was kind of funky, but I didn't notice a lot of undesireable undertones. I used the pickup out of it on my Pro III for some years. I liked it. Might be one of those ideas whose time has truly come...

Due to the light weight, my knee lever kept scooting it across the floor. I had a couple deals that I could nail to club floors, but I ended up getting my ProIII.

A local fellow, now deceased, named Danny Shields had an MSA double 11 string steel. From what I remember, it got stolen some years before he died. I'm not sure. I know it was a fine axe. Wonder whatever became of it.

I'm thinking that the Carbon fiber might be a good move, but I think I'd like to see attachable weights....

Gimmickism aside, it does look like a nice guitar.

One of the drawbacks to recessed fretboards tho, and I notice it on my ProIII, that the tomato seeds that seem to get stuck there are really tough to clean out if somebody happens to throw up on it...

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EJL63FLH
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'63FLH 90"Stroker
'80 Gold Wing
-Peavey: When it's *not* about "The Sound"-
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
"There are only so many ways to fry cat food."- Buster
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-
[This message was edited by Eric West on 17 November 2002 at 03:46 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 17 Nov 2002 4:35 pm

the tomato seeds that seem to get stuck there are really tough to clean out if somebody happens to throw up on it...

Eeeeuuuuw! Eric, you need to start playin' in a better class of club, man!

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 17 Nov 2002 6:42 pm

About a dozen years ago, I was in the motion-controlled camera world. Our company, Image G, and our competitors were developing camera cranes, one of whom, Apogee, was developing a carbon fiber tube arm. Of course "words were exchanged" mocking the aluminum truss arm I was designing, then as fate would have it, on their first shoot, the arm spent a little too much time near the 10k lights and went down like a limber dick.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Nov 2002 7:05 pm

Well Jim..

Its getting kind of hard to pick and choose my gigs here in Big Poodle.

Last nite I spent most of my breaks on the floor showing people who didn't know what it was, what it was. It's one of those clubs that gets a new owner that can't find the old "86 list". People stumbling all over. Actually haven't had any "bodily fluids" deposited recently, but it did get some beer on the fretboard...

I guess you take it where you find it.

Others:

I got a pleasantly stunning letter from Mr Anderson offering to add any "weight" that might be necessary to fit my needs. I was only kidding, about the comparison, but it did laughingly cross my mind.

This new guitar, and Mr Anderson's reputation make this the best one I see out here so far.

Also, I do like a 3d fretboard. The changers look hell for stout, which is a plus, and it doesn't come across as a OB/Gyn exam table on legs. Nice stately cabinet.

It, and Mr Anderson has my vote.

We'll see what happens. I've got my harley projects under control this year.

Best Wishes.

EW

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 17 Nov 2002 7:14 pm

Chas, are you suggesting that the Millenium might, on a hot TV stage, be susceptible to cabinet droop?

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Nov 2002 8:16 pm

"susceptible to cabinet droop?"

BWAAHHAHAHAA!!

I thought my Red Baron comparison would give 'Reece a stroke...

I think it's "Cabinet Drop"..

That brings me to something I didn't think I'd bring up..

On my Old ProIII I've done little "tuning experiments".

(This is all "Disclaimered Stuff" It's just what my failing memory has compiled...)

Though incomplete, I've come up with some obs.

One. The Strings heat up from touch. They flatten.

Two. The Necks elongate if they are aluminum. They sharpen.

Three. The changers stretching the strings draw up and sharpen. It's a tensile quality.

Four. The Changers sharpen and flatten cold strings more.

In the first two hours of playing, I can't say exactly what the time layer scheme is, but it doesn't all happen at once.

My job works best when the "front man" actually knows enough to make some kind of conversation or tell everybody "how nice it is to be here in ____", tell them about the hepatitis epidemic, or "how 'bout those Elections? Those Democrats are screaming now".. you know, give you some time to tweak your G# nut...

For these reasons, I've come to believe that no matter what kind of "compensators", or other doo dads a person has, they are always going to have to dink their changers around between the opening song and the second set. I suppose you could have an etherport connected to a complex hydraulic slave system that would factor in ambient temp, guitar temp, number of string stretches, and possibly gravitational anomalies, or sunspot activity, adjusting the factors incrementally.... but you'll always have a constant:

A Good guitar has to return rock solid every time the pedals/levers are released, and they have to go the exact same length every time. IMHO, that's where the *early* Sierras fell down, and a couple other axes I've tried. P/Ps are just a little more complicated, but it's the same principle.

Also in this somewhere is that I dunno if wood necks don't distort with heat like aluminums seem to. Even then, Jesus, it's not like they don't have tuning pegs.....

At that point a good guitar has to be able to be adjusted slightly and constantly, like say backing off the G# raise for the first two songs, along with the B raises, and maybe the major 7 raises or the Low C changes on the C neck. This, without wearing out the adjusting nuts or collars. My pro III needs a spot of super glue on the nylon adjusters from time to time. It never hurts to check the actuating shaft/lever set screws either The original flattened thread buggering threaded rod ends only worked for the first ten years......

That's pretty simple. Something you can adjust a little without hurting it.

"Cabinet Droop"

I love it..

------------------
EJL63FLH
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'63FLH 90"Stroker
'80 Gold Wing
-Peavey: When it's *not* about "The Sound"-
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
"There are only so many ways to fry cat food."- Buster
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-
[This message was edited by Eric West on 17 November 2002 at 08:55 PM.]

Bruce Hamilton · Post by **Bruce Hamilton** » 18 Nov 2002 9:02 am

As a matter of interest,with the high strength and rigidity of CFC is it any way millable or does it have to be molded? If it has to be molded I would assume because of the large number of parts,that is why the MSA unercarriage and changer were made of metal instead of CFC.
Further can you put a thread in CFC or does everything have to be bolted or glued together?

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 18 Nov 2002 10:32 am

I'm curious about what a Millenium D-10 would end up weighing? You said the cabinet itself was about 4lbs- compared to what for a maple cabinet?

I think that if we can get the weight of these things down significantly, while retaining tone and playability, that in itself will be a major achievement.

Good going, Reece- can't wait to see one of these things. Although I agree with the unfortunate acronym choice "CFC"- I think of freon when I see this.

Lynn Kasdorf

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"You call that thing a guitar?"[This message was edited by Lynn Kasdorf on 18 November 2002 at 10:37 AM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 18 Nov 2002 10:41 am

"I'm curious about what a Millenium D-10 would end up weighing?"

It sez 32lb here http://www.msapedalsteels.com/html/features.html

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 18 Nov 2002 10:59 am

According to Carter's Features and Weight page: http://www.steelguitar.com/webpix/otherpix/features.htm a D-10 Carter with 8&5 weighs 38 lbs. so there's not really that much weight difference.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 18 Nov 2002 11:42 am

Mike Perlowin says:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There is a company called RAINSONG that makes 6 string acoustic guitars out of a similar material (Possibly the exact same stuff. I don't know.)
I think these are possibly the best sounding acoustic guitars available today. If I were in the market for an acoustic, (which I'm not,) I'd pick one of these over a Martin or Taylor without a second thought.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, I have a great deal of respect for you but if you think that Rainsongs sound as good as Martins, you really need to get out more

I find Rainsongs an interesting concept, but in practice, a really lacklustre accoustic in the same camp as Ovation.

no bias on this end

[This message was edited by Steve Stallings on 18 November 2002 at 11:46 AM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 18 Nov 2002 1:35 pm

Bruce H….Thank you for your questions.

The CFC cabinets are made by a computer operated mold. The ability to maintain a precision tolerance with a molded cabinet is yet another example of the attributes of CFC. Although the milling of CFC is not applicable for our purpose, I would believe it to be possible to mill CFC material.

Relative to MSA’s requirements, (as explained above) the molding process is a necessity, whereas in some instances molds are made to accommodate high production output.

Prior to making the mold, MSA identified the precise hole placement for all parts attach points. When CFC flows into the mold, it flows around the predetermined attach positions, (holes) thereby reserving the attach points for assembly and making the cabinet one integrated piece while preserving cabinet resonance properties.

When the cabinet comes out of the mold, each attach point is then filled with material which bonds with CFC and will later accept and securely hold screws. Therefore when parts are attached the screws go into isolated predetermined points and not the cabinet itself.

This procedure preserves resonance, whereas had this process not been utilized, the cabinet resonance properties would have been compromised when the parts were added during assembly.

Lynn K....The reason I referred to Carbon Fiber Composite as CFC was for the sake of brevity. I certainly accept your comment about the acronym in the positive spirit given and thank you for mentioning it.

From this point forward I will refer to the material as CCT which is exactly as we had previously specified at the bottom of "Millennium" on the front of our guitar. Carbon Composite Technology....CCT!

We at MSA and those who have played a Millennium agree the best playing weight for a double 10 is 32 pounds.

The difference between the weight of a Millennium and any other guitar should be considered as a percentage in direct proportion between the two. Some may find the difference to be considerable. MSA can however make a Millennium double 10 with 8 pedals and 5 knee levers which weighs under 30 pounds.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 18 Nov 2002 2:48 pm

Steve, I gotta agree with you on the Martin vs. Rainsong thing. Rainsongs are well-built guitars, that sound good. But have you seen their ads? Either a good-looking gal, or a dude playing one in the rain. Now, I ain't no rocket scientist, but I do know not to play my Martins outside in a driving rain!
And Eric, Bill Hankey is working on that droop thing, even as we speak. Stay tuned!

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 18 Nov 2002 2:52 pm

if you think that Rainsongs sound as good as Martins, you really need to get out more I find Rainsongs an interesting concept, but in practice, a really lacklustre accoustic in the same camp as Ovation.

Gee, I think the one at my local store sounds terrific.

I think new Martin don't sound as good as older ones. Whether this is due to some sort of ageing process, or whether they are not making them as well or don't have the same quality of wood they used to have I can't say, but I was recently in a store and tried out half a dozen of them and didn't like any of them.

I guess it's a matter of personal taste. [This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 18 November 2002 at 04:34 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 18 Nov 2002 5:01 pm

I think new Martins don't sound as good as older ones. Whether this is due to some sort of ageing process...

Well, you are getting older, Mike...

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 18 Nov 2002 9:16 pm

ooops... Jim just had to point that out to you Mike

There is much involved in personal choice with an accoustic. Some of it is gestalt, as in the sensation of fine aged wood. Some of it is learned behaivor secondary to our preconceptions. Obviously, I am a huge Martin fan and spent a lot of time and energy getting TUMGF (The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum) off the ground. Believe it or not, I'm not a guitar snob, which occasionally puzzles some folks I know.
Without spending a lot of time detracting from Reece and the new MSA (very interesting concept IMHO)I would invite you to travel to Gryphon instruments to compare some very fine acccoustics. Martin is currently making some of the finest instruments they have ever made IMO.
They too, have experimented with alternative material in making guitars. Some of this has been met by disdain from the "elite", but I think the marketing has been sound.

In regards to pedal steels, I like wood bodied guitars with lacquer finishes. I am interested in the new MSA, but primarily as a new concept. I would love to see a new wood lacquer body MSA produced with the same attention to detail and finesse as the carbon instrument. Now that, would really grab my attention. I don't see it happening however.
My best wishes to Reece and Kyle in this endeavor.

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God Bless,
Steve
John 3:16[This message was edited by Steve Stallings on 18 November 2002 at 09:17 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 18 Nov 2002 9:39 pm

Again, Steve, you got it right! I bought a new Martin D-18GE last year, and it's as good as anything they've built. But no, Mike, it DOESN'T sound like my '55 D-28. One's mahogany, and the other is 47 year old Brazilian rosewood.
But weren't we talking about plastic steels?

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Nov 2002 9:43 pm

You know, That is indeed a good point.

I think a good instance of that is when here in Portland, in the 80s, a friend of mine named Harley James worked at Sierra. He made a birdseye guitar. It, IMHO was the best thing I ever saw come out of that place.

In the MSA's favor, I have noticed that most "dings" that happen to cabinets are not of the "levi button" or bar droppage type, but the nike stand collision, the Fender Jazz Bass falling out of the stand at break, the door opened into etc. type. The CCF, especially looks like it could be "fixed" a little better than the laquered wood types. I'm mulling over what kind of finish to put on my "Professional". I do Two stage Urethane on my harley stuff, and have half a mind to shoot it this summer with a light blue stain and opalescent under a heavy clear coat.

My Pro III, I stripped years ago after a little water damage started dissolving the varnish. I found that it had a few putty spots on it that were indeed more suited to the dark color, but I covered them up with hearts clubs etc, and a couple other things. I engraved Sho~Bud on the endplate. It's been bushwhipped to be sure. That one's slated for future renov too If I don't go hog wild and get one of these MSAs. I gotta admit, they're pretty damn nice looking from the mechanical point of view. I just might. I'd sure like to try one.

Also gotta admit that I like a heavy guitar. No doubt about it.

EW

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 19 Nov 2002 11:03 am

Eric, Danny Shields once suggested using the same stuff they piant bowling pins with.

Gordon Borland · Post by **Gordon Borland** » 28 Nov 2002 8:37 pm

I cant wait untill I can see the new MSA!
The weight factor sounds great but I wonder
how steady it will be with a big fat guy
like me pushing on the knee levers.[This message was edited by Gordon Borland on 29 November 2002 at 07:23 AM.]

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 29 Nov 2002 10:11 am

I gave the levers and pedals a pretty good thrashing at St. Louis and it was as solid as anything I've played (well, maybe not my Sierra).

In twenty years do you suppose we'll be saying something like "there's just nothing like the tone of a piece of aged carbon fiber"?? You never know!

Congratulations once again to the folks at MSA for their ambition in producing something that is truly different, and possibly better.

------------------

Doug Earnest
The only Zum Keyless U12, Fender Cyber Twin

Gil Berry · Post by **Gil Berry** » 29 Nov 2002 11:04 am

You know, Reece, this carbon fiber banjo kinda reminds me of graphite fishing rods. Do you remember that when they came out they were the rage because of their strength and ability to transmit vibration (read "feel the fish biting"). Then some time later manufacturers started adding boron fiber to the graphite rod to increase that vibration transmission. I'm also aware of a boron-nitride (or nitrate?) crystal called borozon which is as hard as diamond. So how's 'bout experimenting with adding boron fiber to your great new product, and maybe add some borozon to the outside plastic layer to make it impervious to dents and dings! Just food for thought - anyway, when are you guys gonna answer your email at your website?!! Gil

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 29 Nov 2002 12:16 pm

Yikes Gil....Thank you so much for calling it to my attention that my MSA email is not working. I most sincerely apologize to you and anyone else who has not received a response written to me and MSA. We are working on the problem and appreciate your patience.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 29 Nov 2002 2:24 pm

I'm also aware of a boron-nitride (or nitrate?) crystal called borozon which is as hard as diamond.

I bet that would make a great bar.

Gil Berry · Post by **Gil Berry** » 30 Nov 2002 12:15 pm

Dunno, Mike, how it would work as a bar. Not sure surface hardness is all that important in a bar - remember those old lead-filled plastic bars we used to use with non-pedal steel (like the rajah bars??) - they gave a really nice sound without "rattling" and really sustained. Anyway, the borozon crystal layer would be somewhat like adding corondum to a stainless bar I think - making it surface hard, more brittle, would wear forever - but sound?? Be interesting to find out.