The Steel Guitar Forum

Back in the mid 60's I worked for a juke box and background music company in Harrisburg, Pa. The FM receivers that were used for the background music systems were made by a company in New England (don't remember who but I think it was Browning). Our companies Engineer went to the company and got the full tour. One demonstration they gave him was at the final packaging station testing. They would package the receiver and then drop the package five feet to a concrete floor. They then opened the package and checked for any damage, including loose tubes and then tested the unit to verify operation. Their theory was if it could withstand the five foot drop to concrete it could make it through shipping.

So by way of an update, I contacted Al Brisco, who by the way is a featured player at the ISGC this Labor Day Weekend, and he told me that there are no new Carter bodies anywhere in existence. UPS is picking up the steel today and will be performing their damage inspection. I have searched around the web and found the same war stories where UPS refused to pay on damage claims, even where the UPS store did the packing. I have also located a law firm that is evidently putting together some type of class action suit against UPS for their failure to cover damage claims. I have my fingers crossed at this juncture. I will keep you all in the loop as this saga progresses.

The primary benefactors of class action law suits are LAWYERS!!!! The best insurance against shipping damage is PROPER PACKING. I have received items shipped to me that I honestly don't see how they withstood picking up,,,let alone shipping transit.

just throwing this out there.,..as we have not seen any pictures of how the instrument was packed, we are just talking about it. The only way something INSIDE a box can get damaged is for the OUTSIDE to be damaged.

Not true about having the UPS store pack it, I would not let them near an Instrument. When you ship a package of value and weight ,there are two forms that go with it, one is for driver sign off one is for you. IF the driver accepts the package he signs the forms. One for you, one for him . Game set match...


In the last 3 months I have received and shipped 7 Pedal Steel guitars...bought, sold traded..

all UPS , all packed properly for shipment, with access to the handle...all arrived 100% satisfactorily. BOTH ends of the transaction..they packed correct, I packed correct.


If the over 50 pound package is not packed appropriately , expect damage ...this is not to say things won't happen, they can, but in MOST cases we are allowing things to happen. We pack incorrectly. Peanuts in a box is not appropriate for an over 50 pound, they will settle to less than half of the box fill before it leaves the hub.

Both UPS and FED EX have very similar automated shipping systems , the conveyors are off the ground...People are not dropping and throwing packages, they are falling off of the conveyor systems...nobody is picking up a 70 pound box , 45 x 15 x 12 and throwing it...or picking up a box with a Twin Reverb in it and throwing it..sorry..POOR packing..if the driver signs the form that is your legal recourse. If you drop off a package of size and value and they don't give you the form, ask for it. When you print the labels from home , it prints with two forms. Yes, I would agree, in some cases the carriers are at fault, but in MOST cases we are blaming the carrier for something which is really the fault of the packer. The last Steels I shipped I custom fabricated a box around the case, it probably took 45 min to do it...I leave approx 2 inches of space around the entire case for packing with access to the handle.

For a body to be cracked, that is one hell of a shock...fall..whatever...sorry to hear it...

Pack yourself or leave it to a high school student working part time.

By the way, I am not defending UPS.I am telling you all if you do not pack an over 50 pound item properly odds are it won't make the journey. How many more times do we need to read these stories ? You can sue UPS or Fed ex. but you still lost an expensive Instrument, and that's the shame of it all...

Hi Tony:

This steel was packed very well. They did damage the case. As you say, it must have fallen off a conveyor somewhere and fell quite a distance. It appears from the damage that the fall must have caused the case to twist or contort thus cracking the body. My bet would be that it fell off the conveyor and other heavy items fell off with it and landed o. It or it landed on angle on other items that had already fallen. A UPS manger looked at it yesterday and got into an argument with Jack Goodson who traded for the Carter. She was shown how it was packed. She didn't allege it was mis-packed, rather, she alleged that the steel was broken to begin with and that I tried to scam him. Problem for them is we have before and after pics. You cannot win with UPS, they are the true scam artists.

"""""
just throwing this out there.,..as we have not seen any pictures of how the instrument was packed, we are just talking about it. The only way something INSIDE a box can get damaged is for the OUTSIDE to be damaged.""""

Not quite true,,,,,if anything inside the boz is "loose",,,it acts as a battering ram!!!,,,,everything MUST be tight,,,solid,,,inside the box,,,all slack taken up,,,wedged tight.

If there was damage to the outside of the box,,,that would indicate damage in shipment. If there was no damage to outside of box,,that would indicate either that the item was damaged before being packed,,,,OR packed improperly (battering ram)

When I packed my stage one to ship, I packed the inside of the case with old t-shirts etc. I had to force the lid shut on the case. Probably added a pound or two but there was absolutely zero movement inside the case!! Just an idea for anyone packing up a steel to ship.

i will not post photos due to the fact that everyone has an opinion. two managers viewed the problem and said the drop did not cause the problem because of the minimal damage to the case. that is when they said it probably was shipped in this condition. so we will have to wait for their decision....thanks jack

At FXG (I drive their Linehaul), heavy stuff like steels and big amps don't ride the belts at the hubs. They go onto utility carts pulled by a Cushman buggy. If someone loads the cart wrong, the axe will fall somewhere between 2&4 feet at a speed between 5-10 mph. The hubs are so large nothing gets moved by hand very far.

Jack Goodson wrote: two managers viewed the problem and said the drop did not cause the problem because of the minimal damage to the case. that is when they said it probably was shipped in this condition.

I hope this works out for everyone involved. I realize that Jack may be paraphrasing UPS employees, but he mentioned "minimal damage" to the case, so there must be "some" damage to it. Also, they said "The" drop, not "A" drop. Sounds to me like they just acknowledged dropping it. Pay attention to what UPS officials say...it might prove to be valuable later.

I feel your pain, John. I have bought and sold many items online, both on and off of this forum. I once ordered more than thirty computers for my employer. When they were delivered, we caught the driver dropping them from the back of the truck to the paved parking lot in front of our building, in plain view. After a disastrous experience with an amp I bought, I started taking pictures of amps, steels, and similar items I buy and sell. I photograph items I sell as I pack them, and items I buy as I unpack them upon delivery. It takes a little more time, but I feel that it's worth the extra measure of protection for both the buyer and seller in case of damage and a potential claim. While those two incidents happened years apart and are hopefully exceptions, I can't help but wonder what goes on in freight terminals out of the customer's view. I'm not sure that any amount of packing can prevent damage by someone who really puts his mind to it.

As far as court jurisdiction in your case, a determination might have to be made regarding the most likely location where the damage occurred. That could be difficult to determine, and might vary from state to state. In Texas where I live, it is possible that a case could be filed in either the buyer's or seller's home state, since the points of origin and destination were in different states, and the carrier does business in both. It is often simpler to file a case in small claims court, providing that the amount is within that jurisdiction. Small claims court dockets are often less crowded than state level courts or offices of attorneys general. Small claims court judges or magistrates are often municipal judges or justices of the peace. They can't try a case out of court, but are sometimes willing to discuss situations and advise you of your options. Also, filing fees are usually lower and rules of evidence less stringent than in higher courts. The advantage of your state's attorney general's office is that if you can get their attention, they might assist free of charge. However, unless they determine that this is significant enough to make a statewide impact, they might consider it a personal matter. It might take them a long time to address the issue if they decide to take it on.

I worked for FedEx from the mid 80's to 2000. I worked in various capacities as a package handler, driver, dispatcher and manager. I am sad to say I watched FedEx go from a customer focused company to a company driven by the bottom line.

FedEx used to pay claims almost without question. Just like Sears used to guarantee Craftsman tools. But sadly both of those days are over. In my opinion in both of those cases it's due in part to customer abuse. Many companies used to TRUST the customer to be honest when it came to returns and guarantees.

Now we see a climate where the customer is viewed as always or nearly always at fault. I wonder why?

There is no excuse for not honoring a legitimate claim or guarantee but now it seems we the customer must PROVE our case.

UPS is no exception to this. I'm not defending them, but I understand their position. With so many people expecting something for nothing and so much abuse in the system it's hard not to see why they want to investigate and scrutinize every claim.

I have shipped several PSG's and amps and never had an issue. The big question is this as outlined on Greg Cutshaw's website (thanks Greg).

QUOTE From Greg Cutshaw's Website....

"Another thought (thank you Steel Guitar Forumites!): The case partition between the steel and the legs/pedal rack is not as solid as the exterior sides of the case. If the case is dropped, it's possible that the entire weight of the steel will be thrust against this partition, totally shattering it and exposing the guitar, rack and legs to damage. To prevent this, it is wise to add two blocks of wood, one at each end of the partition, to shore it up and prevent it from breaking or shifting"

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Shipping%20S ... teels.html

[/quote] If the case is dropped, it's possible that the entire weight of the steel will be thrust against this partition, totally shattering it and exposing the guitar, rack and legs to damage.

,,,the "battering ram" effect,,,from with inside. After 12-15 years of buying/selling on the forum,,,,and after seeing some of the "packing" of items I've received, I'm becoming more and more reluctant to buy things that I REALLY, REALLY want,,,because I'm skeptical of how it will be packed! When I pack something of any significant weight,,,it takes a good half a day,,,15-20 bucks, (plenty of 1/2" foam builders board, heavy duty tape, heavy duty cardboard,,,not just "a box",,,,but "custom wrapped"). My goal is not just to get the item there safely,,,but for the buyer to write back saying,,,"it arrived,,,man that's the best packing I've ever seen",,,packing IS A PROJECT,,,,in and of itself. I've received items that honestly looked like the seller just wanted it out of his way,,,,would have been just as well off in a paper sack!!!!,,,,that's making me afraid to buy anything,,,,not knowing what that seller considers "packed properly".

Jason wrote;
" I packed the inside of the case with old t-shirts etc. I had to force the lid shut on the case."
I do this too. Then I put two canvas "utility straps' around the case to ensure that whatever happens, the case will not fly open. I then wrap the case in styrofoam insulation that I buy at Lowes. They come in a pack of six, called "Panel foam." Then I box it. I also take pics of every step of the packing job. I feel the pics will help a lot if I have to make a claim!
I just received a UPS shipped '72 Shobud S-10 yesterday. The UPS box was pretty mooched up on the ends. I was worried! Bill Bohn had packed the guitar very well, but when he asked to insure it for $1,500, the UPS store suggested he let them pack it. So they put his excellent box into a bigger box and added some foam "peanuts." They cushioned the guitar well. I'm now the proud owner of another Shobud, and at least a million "peanuts!" BTW, here's a pic of Bill's excellent package job. Note his use of plywood/wood inserts to strengthen the case!

I have a local pack and ship place that charges me $25 to pack a steel for shipping. I believe you could throw it off of the ups truck with a good chance of survival. I've never seen anything packed like this guy does. Its a shame to have to go to those lengths though when just a little care in handling would avoid most damages.

ERV Wrote

With FedEx, they said that I didn't buy insurance, it was declared value. That makes no sense at all as I paid extra for the insurance

Exactly Erv. I just shipped a Mullen to Missouri, via Fed-Ex, and told the clerk I wanted $2500 insurance on it. He said, it's not insurance, it's just declared value. This dude is a smart jack anyways. I wanted to tell him, well if something happens to this guitar, we'll see if the judge says I bought insurance, or just declared value. But I've been using Fed-Ex for years now, have shipped probably 6-7 steel guitars and about that many amps, and hadn't had a problem with them so far.
terry

Probably a legal technicality...if insurance is offered, you can insure up to any amount desired, you could say the steel is a hundred grand in bills and hope they wreck it...and then collect...just a thought

On the other hand, a common carrier would be reasonably expected to handle all merchandise with reasonable care, and unless there is a specific exclusion, it wouldn't surprise me if they would be required to reimburse for damage, even without this thing they're selling

I have Had 3 Steels Damaged With ups Rough Treatment, Each Time I was told it was not Packed Well enough to take their Abuse! I was also told by a Employee if They Pack it The Insurance Will Pay, If You Pack it they will not! Randy G.

I know all too well about UPS. I received a package from a vendor my company, I work for uses. The box was torn up and opened. I had to check the invoice to make sure. I work for a private guard service, and I work in the uniform room issuing uniforms and equipment to the officers. The other week ago, the UPS man informed me about the damage. That was good for him. I checked the invoice against what was in the box. All were accounted for. You have good and bad in everything. Jim Lindsey bought a Session 500, and it was shipped by FEDEX. When he got the amp, he found the speaker basket was damaged. FedEx wanted Jim to send it back to them and they would fix it. Jim declined and got the speaker fixed himself.
Larry Sasser in a previous posting was flying to Texas and the AIRLINE destroyed his Emmons. With a FORKLIFT of all things.
Tommy Shown

First of all, to John and his purchaser, I hope everything gets worked out. It is unfortunate when something like an expensive steel guitar gets damaged.

Regarding the question of "declared value" vs "insurance"... UPS says

"Declared value is not insurance coverage. The declared value of a package represents UPS's maximum liability for the package in the case of loss or damage."

So basically, it's not insurance, but UPS's liability.

You can read more at http://www.pressroom.ups.com/Fact+Sheet ... +Value+Q&A

We've all seen the TV stories and YouTube vids of delivery men being much less than gentle with packages. I hear horror stories from ham radio operators where an expensive radio was damaged beyond repair by dropping, kicking, forklift, etc.

It DOES and will continue to happen. About the only way to insure perfect shipment is to hand deliver it. Even then, it's still dependent on if you have a wreck or not while transporting.

That said, I have made up my mind that when I upgrade (and I do hope I will) if it takes it, I will drive a considerable distance to pick up my next steel.

Again, best of luck to you John for a good outcome.

"damaged beyond repair by drooping"

You talkin' 'bout me Scott?

Sorry John.. corrected to remove reference to you!

Tony Prior wrote:The only way something INSIDE a box can get damaged is for the OUTSIDE to be damaged.

That's not always the case. I've seen shock damage (caused by dropping) break necks off guitars, disassemble pickups, and destroy case dividers, while leaving nary a mark on the outside carton. One of my co-workers guitars (a Gretsch) had a neck broken off in shipping, and both the cardboard box and the guitar case were totally undamaged!

I do agree that most damage is caused by insufficient packaging, and that a guitar should be fully supported and blocked in the case, and that the guitar should be double-boxed, with at least 2" to 3" of polyurethane foam (not styrofoam) between the boxes. Plaster it with "FRAGILE" and "HANDLE WITH CARE" stickers...and then cross your fingers.

Remember, nobody cares as much for your stuff as you do!

yes agreed..I overlooked items being able to "walk" inside a box.

Tony Prior wrote:yes agreed..I overlooked items being able to "walk" inside a box.

OR being able to "walk" in the case!