Lack of love for new steel amplifers

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 10 May 2014 2:36 pm

Bob-
Of course, and this discussion has (and will continue to) go on for ages, with all sides being both right and wrong....I just know that Milkman users routinely get the comment from others that "Hey, I don't know why, but you really sound good tonight..."

Maybe they just play better because they think they will sound better...who knows?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 10 May 2014 2:44 pm

Steve:

There's a lot of truth in your last sentence.

Bill Moran · Post by **Bill Moran** » 10 May 2014 3:18 pm

The steel guitar community is getting old. Were not playing out much so I guess a lot of players will sacrifice tone for weight.
When you look at the players with fulltime gigs you won't see any digital wall sucking amps without transformers. Peavey tried that with the 1000 .
To sum it up the new amps are nothing to talk about. Just a noise without tone !
My 2 cents .

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 10 May 2014 6:01 pm

I've been playing gigs with a stock Peavey amp (Session 400) since it was new in 1978. It's very common for people to tell me what good tone I'm getting. Recently I've added a Sarno Black Box to the signal chain, but those comments were common long before I got the Black Box. I've NEVER had someone say "If only you had a Twin, Milkman, Stereo Steel, etc."

If you can afford a high end boutique amp, and really want to spend the money, then get one. But you don't have to spend big bucks to get great tone. The success or failure of my career will not be determined by the amp I play through.

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 10 May 2014 6:21 pm

Ahh.....the elusive search for the "Sound".......as with most of you , I have traveled through the gauntlet of chasing amplifiers. Finally settling on the SS again with a mod Vegas as a backup....I was told many years ago by a prominent steel player who said in the big picture it's all up the the ears of the player....or there's not a nickels worth of difference between most of the equipment out there these days. Sooooo........the simple answer is find something you like ...play it and use it....stop chasing .....your BP will get lower and you will be at peace with yourself and your equipment.....all this of course ...IMHO

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 10 May 2014 6:44 pm

Paul, once you train your hands to get a good tone (much more important than excellent gear), I'd wager that ANY of us: you; me; Paul; Buddy; Lloyd; et c. would sound GOOD on nearly any decent steel (or steel-friendly) amp, but will PREFER our own amps.
The increment in tone is at the margins. AND probably only evident to the player.
Would the audience notice whether I play a Peavey or Fender? Naaw. Would I be happier on the Fender? Yes. Would I be happier still with a Milkman? Yes. Three grand's worth of happier? If I have it, yes.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 10 May 2014 10:25 pm

Bob Hoffnar wrote: I get the feeling Tim would rather do everything himself to make sure every amp is perfect.

This is true.

To be honest, I am glad there are other amp options. If everyone wanted a Milkman I wouldn't be able to handle the volume. I make each one by hand, one at a time. I have to dole them out - pace myself - to make sure they are all as amazing as they can be. There's no easy way to build an amplifier for pedal steel just like there is no fast way to build the pedal steel itself. It's a labor of love.

So if you have a Milkman, or are on the wait list, or want one - know that you are part of something special. The reviews are out there. Use google to search!

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 11 May 2014 3:01 am

I know these top range amps sound great and good luck to those who can afford them, I am not in that price range.What brought TONE home to me was at last years Dallas show when I sat about ten feet away from Mike Johnson, Show Pro, 112 and DD3,

WOW. Use whatever you want or can afford , as long as YOU are happy with it.

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » 11 May 2014 3:20 am

Georg SÃ¸rtun wrote:
Jim Williams wrote:[...] but several thousand dollars for a less than fifty watt amp???? I think not, even if I had the cash. I know what is inside the box.
Same here (and, FWIW, I do have the cash).

I do find it quite OK that some build and sell these special and pricey amps, and that some find reasons to buy them. For myself I choose to build and/or modify "sterile" SS-amps v/speakers/cabs to suit my taste, and they do in most cases come out much cheaper than the "specials".

I agree, by all means if one prefers these amps and has the funds go for it...you only live once.

Alex Cattaneo · Post by **Alex Cattaneo** » 11 May 2014 5:19 am

Even though I'm an active musician playing out every week, I still find it hard to justify spending over 1k for an amp for marginal gains. I got lucky and paid 1k for a 1965 Deluxe, and 900$ for a 1962 Brownface Princeton. If I'm ever stupid enough to sell them, I won't loose a dime. Seems like a better investment.

But the thing is, with the Telonics and Steelaire, the features are overkill. Trying to please every one is very noble, but it puts the price tag way too high. I was hoping the Steelaire would be under 1k. Maybe they can make a straight forward version, with no tremolo, no remote control, etc. I can't speak for anyone else, but for tubes I got vintage Fenders, and for solid state I have a Nashville 400 and a very new Cube GX 40. I play music to earn a living so only a fraction of my income can go to gear. it would different if I had a day job to fuel my GAS, but such is not the case. therefore I think of gear as tools that allow me to earn money, not a hobby that requires me to spend all my loose change.

Ollin Landers · Post by **Ollin Landers** » 11 May 2014 6:07 am

Ok. I'm far from being a professional musician but I've been playing music and messing around with gear for over 40 years.

Common sense dictates that you choose the right tool for the job. There are many TYPES of amps that can be used for steel guitar.

So often preference comes down to comfort. If I have experience with a certain amp that I like I'm more likely to keep using it.

I think most musicians like most craftsmen or mechanics once they have the right tool it's a matter of personal preference. What works best for you in terms of being able to do the job.

If all you need is a $10.00 hammer and you can make it do what you want then you can get by. If you have the money and a $40.00 hammer gives you a better edge then buy the $40.00 hammer.

With amps I think it comes down to

1) What you can afford
2) What are you comfortable with
3) How easy is it to dial it in FOR YOU!
3) What additional features does the amp have that you need or want

I started with a Session 400 went to a NV 112 then settled on the Cube 80XL. The 80XL is light, sounds good, does double duty for guitar and PSG, it's easy for ME to dial in, and didn't break the bank. It's a $10.00 hammer but I can get by with it. If I had unlimited funds I would have one of everything.

Steven Husting · Post by **Steven Husting** » 11 May 2014 9:18 am

Hi folks

I'm a steel newbie, and just a lurker here, but I've been playing guitar for 40 years and building my own tube amps for 10, and would like to add my two euro-cents here.

First, the quality and tone of low- to mid-price gear these days is amazing. Bang for the buck is high like never before. You don't have to spend much money to get a good sounding, reliable, flexible piece of gear.

Second, if you convert the 1965 price of a twin reverb to 2014 dollars I'll bet you will be surprised. We're in 'boutique-land.'

Third - there are differences between, say, a Fender Hot Rod (single side PCB, thin board, ribbon cables, etc.) ; a Fender Reissue or Pro Tube series (thicker boards, etc.), and Custom Shop amps.

Fourth - if you buy an amp like a Milkman, you are really buying Tim's time more than anything else. You will get top quality stuff built in a robust, easily-repairable manner, but in the end it is so to speak his hourly rate you are paying for. I have never seen, much less played or owned, a Milkman but it is clear to me what he is doing (he doesn't try to hide anything) and the quality of his workmanship is obvious. I assume - but don't know - that if you order one of his amps, you can discuss it with him and he can tune it to your needs. This was what was special about Dumble amps - each was tuned to a specific player, the guy who ordered the amp.

So there is no real discussion here. You can get great tone out of a Peavey, and you can get great tone out of a Milkman. You get some things from a Milkman (or whatever) that you don't get with a Peavey or Fender, but you pay for those things.

Myself, I appreciate the beauty of a well-laid-out turret board, with nice clean lead dress and no heater hum. But then I build my own. I couldn't afford to buy all the amps I have built, at least not in the same quality.

I hope to be able to try a Milkman some day, but they are scarce over here in Yurrp.

Thank you for your attention.

Steve

Steven Finley · Post by **Steven Finley** » 11 May 2014 9:56 am

Cube 80 rolands are hars to beat for the price and sound,and so far I find them to be more reliable than other High dollar amps I owned,however if I was to buy a new one it woould be a Quilter or Milkman,but my Rolands work great, and with gigs not as plentiful as they used to be Iam not going to part with$1300 to $3000 for a new amp just to get a slight edge in tone, after all mostof your tone comes from years and years of playing and your hands,not your new piece of over priced equipment,just my thoughts on the matter.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 11 May 2014 10:00 am

Given reasonably good quality gear, the biggest component in a good sound is ALWAYS going to be how well you play your instrument. Look at all the great performances posted from the St. Louis convention where the backline is all Peavey furnished.

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 11 May 2014 10:52 am

I'm still waiting for a new steel amp with built in Wi-Fi and GPS!

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 11 May 2014 12:07 pm

Jay, I can do you a seat. Wi-Fi, GPS, and RFD tv.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 11 May 2014 12:55 pm

I have a Telonics TCA-500 combo on order. It is certainly not a case of the Emperor's new clothes, as I have played through one and given it a serious workout. It weighs half of the weight of my Webb 614E with a Neo speaker, and has incredible sonic clarity and massive tone. It makes the Peavey Nashville 112 sound like a tinny radio.

I have a garage full of Peavey solid state steel guitar amps, and a studio full of different amps for recording. The Telonics combo amp is a 'must have' for me, and I am happy to pay its premium price. The Telonics volume pedal is considered to be over-expensive by many, but I think it is worth every penny. Telonics spend a fortune on R&D, and their equipment is made to the highest specification.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 11 May 2014 12:59 pm

Jay Ganz wrote:I'm still waiting for a new steel amp with built in Wi-Fi and GPS!

Hang on Jay - GPS? Don't you know where you are sitting?

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 11 May 2014 1:32 pm

No, Tim, it's for finding all those lost notes and chords!

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 11 May 2014 5:51 pm

I assume - but don't know - that if you order one of his amps, you can discuss it with him and he can tune it to your needs.

Steven, you are correct. Tim answered more e-mails from me than he probably wanted to in a year. He hadn't started putting in a loop, but did for me. When I found I wasn't getting all the volume I needed, he used a different method on my 2d Milkman amp, then modified my 1st amp's chassis, gratis. Ultimately, it turned out I get plenty of clean, clear volume without using the loop, and I use a lot of pedals. A few years back, I posted something in regards to amps, and someone pointedly replied that I should get a get a serious (tube) amp. I didn't care to spend a fortune, but a "fortune" is a relative term. I ended up with a Little Walter; I liked the amp, but needed more. I finally went for Tim's PSG and Mini amps, sold the LW, and I can say I'm done. (Well, his hybrid looks promising, but I AM retired now...). Someone later made a comment to the effect that I must be rich to buy these amps. I'm not, but my reply was similar to what Steve Lipsey's comment: I have had only one pedal steel for the past 35 years, one Peavey NV400 amp, then an Evans, and it seems as if everyone else has a garage or studio full of amps, steels, guitars, etc. I figured I was only catching up on gear. Comes down to priorities, in that case.
Naturally, I'd agree that the sound is primarily in one's hands, head and heart. Not specific steels, pickups, amps, effects - they're just there to help. So, yes, the economy has been bad, and our hands are our real sound, but this is my vote for Milkman amps. (Final note: I have played through Fender amps over the years, but found the sound more brittle than a Milkman - there IS a difference).

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 12 May 2014 7:46 am

This topic has been kind of sitting in the back of my mind and I am hoping to set the record straight regarding pricing.

First of all, there have been several negative comments - using the phrase "overpriced" for example. I do not think this is fair to call a high end amplifier overpriced.

Here is where the car analogy comes in handy:

Is a high end sports car overpriced? Or is it just a more expensive option. With cars it all makes sense - there's the reliable and affordable commuter car that everyone can have, and then there's a high performance car that not everyone needs, but some have and enjoy quite a bit. You don't look at a guy driving a Porsche and say "my Ford focus can do all the things that can do, and its half the price". Of course it can get you from A to B if that's what you need, but the Porsche can also do a whole lot more if you ask it to.

When it comes to a high end tube amplifier it is often judged first on price, and then on what it does. Its not logical, and not fair. Why not logical? Well for one, inflation has been completely removed from many of the discussions. The most expensive Milkman amplifier is still less expensive than a Fender Twin was in 1965 if you adjust the dollar.

For some reason there seems to be a lot of pushback whenever someone builds something that costs more than $500 and introduces it to the steel community. Again with the car, its true that a good driver can do a lot with the Ford Focus and a poor driver in a Porsche is still a poor driver *however* what happens when a good driver has a Porsche? Would that driver not be able to feel the difference? And would he be judged for wanting the best possible car to drive?

I can not speak for all amplifier manufacturers, but when it comes to Milkman I can honestly say they were not designed for everyone. Its a very high performance machine - custom built by hand - its almost ridiculous to compare it to something you can buy made in a factory overseas and sold at Guitar Center. Yes, both products can amplify a sound - the equivalent of going from A to B - but what happens when you get out into the open road?

Thank you for taking the time to read this

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 12 May 2014 8:08 am

Good words Tim.

I always have a quiet laugh to myself when I see guys going apoplectic about the price of high end equipment. The sad fact is that the very small quantities that are purchased by the steel guitar playing market do not make R&D investment viable for many companies. My friend Tom Bradshaw disclosed on this forum that he made and sold around 20 of his hand made boutique and one off Webb amps a few years back. They retailed at over $2K, yet Tom lost money on each one. I was fortunate to get my name on the list and buy one as it is an amazing amp of the highest quality.

With all of the criticism that high end product makers in our field attracts, its a wonder that they bother in the first place.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 12 May 2014 8:15 am

I think if you read the thread to this point, you will see why more people don't post about any new amps they might have.

Dave Potter · Post by **Dave Potter** » 12 May 2014 9:10 am

Paul Sutherland wrote:It's very common for people to tell me what good tone I'm getting. Recently I've added a Sarno Black Box to the signal chain, but those comments were common long before I got the Black Box. I've NEVER had someone say "If only you had a Twin, Milkman, Stereo Steel, etc."

Ever heard the saying "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"?

Most people tend to behave that way naturally. A lot of negative comments remain unsaid.

Note: I intentionally said nothing about which amp is "better". My comment is about human nature.