Emmons Push-Pull Millennium

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 17 Oct 2002 9:50 am

Reece&Fred

Thanks for your insights into the new MSA.The more I read it seems that carbon fiber MSA's are where many players are going.Reece what steps led you to the ceation of the new MSA?Had you thought about carbon fiber for a pedal steel body for along time?[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 17 October 2002 at 11:08 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 17 Oct 2002 10:28 am

As far as polymers go ...The first completely synthetic plastic was BAKELITE ...

Guitars made of this "plastic" seem to have enjoyed a respectable following over the years. [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 17 October 2002 at 11:30 AM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 17 Oct 2002 10:32 am

Someone comes out with something new on the market and everyone crucifies them for it. Why? Because they either can't afford it, can't justify it to themselves or just plain don't want it and don't want anyone else to have it! Well, I say that is bunk! (that's bullsh!t in a nice way) I looked at these guitars in St. Louis and they are drop dead beautiful and I am anxiously waiting to try one out. If I like it, I'll buy it and I don't give 2 hoots in hell what anyone thinks about that! Let's give these new guitars a chance and see what they can do. They will either carry themselves or they won't, simple as that!

......Since when is wearing a Rolex, driving a Lincoln, drinking imported wine and owning too many steel guitars such a bad thing? I'm just glad my wife could afford all of them!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 17 Oct 2002 12:31 pm

Mike, other than myself, I can think of only a handful of forumites who have expressed any reservations about the new MSA. In fact, from the comments I’ve seen, it seems clear that, in general, opinions posted on the forum run toward the very positive. Which is fine, people are entitled to form their own opinions and express them freely.

And I'm sure you don't intend to characterize my comments as crucifixion – that would be far too strong. I allow that it is possible that composite body guitars might represent the future of steel guitars. Personally, I don’t think that will happen. I think they will find a niche alongside all the other more traditional kinds of steel guitars, but that’s just my opinion. I have no crystal ball.

I do feel justified, however, in raising questions about the price of the new MSA when compared with the other steel guitars being made today and given its method of manufacture. Since it’s being represented as the “Rolex” of steel guitars, I feel that it’s fair to ask what makes it a Rolex compared to the other fine steel guitars being made today.

Frankly, I am stunned by the $6,000 price tag. But if I am the only one, so be it. I am not against people spending their own money any way they choose and I wish all those who buy the new MSA happiness with their purchase. As for myself, I value my money and look for value in anything I buy. Yes, I can afford to spend $6,000 on a steel guitar. I can also afford not to.

You are right when you say that these guitars “will either carry themselves or they won't”. In the end, my opinion means nothing – the marketplace is far smarter than I am and will ultimately make its own determination.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 17 Oct 2002 12:47 pm

Again, this is an Emmons thread, not an MSA thread!

Emmons website doesn't show the prices for the LeGrande III but the Legrande II with 8&4 has a "Retail Price" of $6550.00 and a "Picker's Factory Price" of $3275.00 or 50% off list. You can check out the page and see the other available options here: http://www.emmonsguitar.com/pages/legrande2.html
I'm sure a new push-pull would be substantially higher.

autry andress · Post by **autry andress** » 17 Oct 2002 1:00 pm

The Emmons Push-Pull may be gone but not
forgotten. This thread was for feed back on
A Improved Easy to Play Stay in Tune Push Pull. & I certainly hope it will make a come
back. Thanks to every one who has responded.

Bob Please Close this thread.
Thanks

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 17 Oct 2002 1:24 pm

Stephen, I wasn't really referring to you or anyone in particular when I made my post so we should be cool.

Getting back on topic, a new LeGrande III with 8 & 5 with the detuner on one neck would retail for $7,436 and sell from the factory at $3,718. I would think at these prices, a modern day push/pull with the carbon fiber body would run somewhere around $6,000 or more for the factory price. Who would complain then? There'd be someone out there who would.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Oct 2002 1:48 pm

I really look for more manufacturers to go in this direction (composite bodies). Foreign countries that don't have suitable woods to use may also go in this direction. If the new MSA is as big a success as I think it might be, look for a cheaper "knock-off" from one of the foreign companies...maybe one in Japan!

Al Miller · Post by **Al Miller** » 17 Oct 2002 1:48 pm

HEY GUYS !!!
ITS IN THE HANDS
"TONE" comes from within the player NOT under the guitar. every steel player/owner i know keeps searching for this unmatched tone in a guitar. be it emmons ,mullen,sho-bud,carter,zum or your 2x6 with ten strings on it . its not the guitar or the amp. ITS IN THE HANDS !!! Hell i thought we all new that!! yes emmons guitars sound diffrent than sho-bud guitars and so on, but the tone that defines an individual player comes from the hand and heart. there is already a buddy emmons and paul franklin and tommie white lets hear some new players with there own hands.
BOO

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Oct 2002 1:50 pm

Easy for you to say, Boo!

(He's got that "Emmons touch".)

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 17 Oct 2002 2:03 pm

"It's in the hands" ?

All of it ?
How do you account for the HUGE difference in Emmons' tone between the Ray Price recordings and the Roger Miller recordings ? Different hands ?
-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 17 October 2002 at 03:43 PM.]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 17 Oct 2002 2:03 pm

Al, you said it better than I ever could have.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 17 Oct 2002 4:48 pm

Stephen O-----
Are you sure this is not a personality thing between you and an individual in the MSA company? One of your previous posts indicated something about 'an unindited co-conspirator' and I took the liberty of sending you an email asking for clarification and I haven't received an answer but that's understandable.

I have taken the liberty to back track via the Forum Search engine and I found out the reason for your remark.

I'm sure you don't have an 'attitude' but I would like to call to your attention the possibility that you sometimes take things out of context just as I do when I become involved in an intense discussion.

In a previous post you said and I quote: "Since it’s being represented as the “Rolex” of steel guitars, I feel that it’s fair to ask what makes it a Rolex compared to the other fine steel guitars being made today."

That in itself is certainly a fair question but if you'll take the time to tell me who is representing the MSA Millennium as a "Rolex" I will be glad to hear you out.

In fact Reece Anderson said the following, and I quote: " An inexpensive watch will keep time, but there are a lot of Rolex watches being worn. A black and white TV will provide the same picture, yet most have a color set. An older used car will get you where you want to go, but we all see new luxury cars everywhere."

If in your wildest imagination or interpretation can get the slightest twinge of the new MSA instrument being represented as "---the Rolex of steel guitars" out of that you become extremely credible in your criticism.

But if not then I think you probably better pull the black feathers out and admit that the intrument's material just might be a revolution in the steel guitar industry.

Have a nice day. BTW I think the correct spelling is 'indictment' but because I've never had one, along with the fact that i have trouble with 'kat', I'm not certain.

Have a super day and I like my Emmons too. Wish it were lighter though, how about you?

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The spirit be with you!!

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 17 Oct 2002 5:31 pm

First of all, Mike, I'm pretty sure Karen will have to spring for 2 of those Millenniums once Jason catches up with this thread.

This isn't an endorsement of any guitar, but I fondly recall gazing and a catalog years ago when selecting my PSG. My buddy at work pushed the right button when he said, "You'll never be disappointed with 'the best'". Absolutely all I needed to hear -- book it!

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HagFan

Al Miller · Post by **Al Miller** » 18 Oct 2002 2:56 am

John Steel!!
thats just what i was trying to say!! yes it is in the hands!!! 99.9% of it . i ask you this? why would Mr emmons want to play the same on ray price's stuff as he did roger miller's stuff? you see he has the hands to make ANY guitar sound like he wants it to sound or the same guitar to sound differnt!!! so i must ask again lets all try this .
BOO

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 18 Oct 2002 3:08 am

Fred Shannon, SHAME ON YOU! You know darn well that I responded to your email. I asked you to tell me who you were and why you were asking me this question. And YOU didn't respond to ME!

It appears to me that you are just running interference for a guy who can't tolerate opinions contrary to his own, no matter how mild or fairly worded.

Your post is bizarre.[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 18 October 2002 at 04:09 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 18 October 2002 at 04:26 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 18 Oct 2002 6:05 am

Mr. O'Brien, I have gone through every email I have received in the last 3 days and I don't have one single one from you.

Your post that prompts this reply is the only indication I have ever had that you even received my email. That you can be assured of.

Further,I think it would be a good idea however for you and I to take this off the Forum and continue any discussion you and I might have in a private manner. No insult, or condenscending remark you make toward my character or reputation will go unanswered, either here or in some other manner, you can depend on it.

If you had not brought up the 'un-indited co-conspirator' publicly in one of your posts I wouldn't even have considered asking or commenting about it on this forum. If you want to blame someone for a 'bizarre post', check your bathroom mirror.

As for anyone I know who needs interference being led for them, and I can only assume you mean Mr. Anderson, it should be perfectly obvious to you he's the last person who ever posted on this forum who needs anyone to make way for him, his opinions, rights, or expertise when it comes to pedal steel guitars.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions and also have the right to state them, but your personal attacks and flames just probably won't be tolerated.

As I previously stated, I believe it will be in the best interest of both of us to just go the email route and continue this, if you want to continue it. We both might be well advised to simply drop it and go our separate ways. No further discussion will render anything but hard feelings and bad reading.

b0b: sorry for this little outbreak, but enough is enough and it's time this young man's hand gets called. I base this conclusion on this thread and previous statements made on this and 'the other forum'. I will not answer any further comments he has here on the forum, but will attend to it privately.

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The spirit be with you!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 18 Oct 2002 7:49 am

Fred, since you've made a public spectacle of yourself, perhaps you would like to explain to forumites why you're so worked up over those words?

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 18 Oct 2002 8:41 am

Steve, one last post here, you have an email on the way.

Worked up over those words? I don't believe I used the words 'bizarre post' and certainly didn't bring up "un-indited co-conspirator". You did, but if you want me to explain I'll be glad to share, and then I'll let you answer a question and as far as I'm concerned, that's it.

After 71 years of life, having gained a little wisdom along the way, mellowed greatly, there are a few things that still upset me: Warm beer, wet toilet tissue, and people who let their alligator mouth overload their hummingbird butt (those are quotes from the email I sent you)

...Upbeat individuals who have nothing invested, can gain no profit or loss from an investment they didn't make, but try to purposefully harm an individual or industry have no place in my life. If you are doing that you should have your mouth washed out with Lava.

If one believes the internet exempts their writings from litiguous actions, they better think again.

I simply believe, as I stated in my email to you, you along with a couple of other folks have had your 'button pushed' and you're probably too young and ambitious to be aware of it. In other words young man, IMHO I believe you're grinding someone else's axe, and working on their woodpile.

I believe you've stated previously, you have never seen the MSA Millennium, held it, or played it and don't intend to. How you can make some of the statements you've made about it and the individuals who are manufacturing the item is beyond some of those of us who've been down the track.

Your 'flamers' are not allowing me to "publicly make a spectacle" of myself. Steve you need to read my last post and make another trip back to the bathroom mirror. I see no reason not to like you but you keep this up and I'll probably find one. To publicly swap insults with you is like my having a duel with an unarmed man. Your evidence didn't put any bullets in your gun. Your stated opinions indicate you believe they're there but guess what-----

If you don't have any money in the game, no cards to play, express your opinions but I advise you again, you might just oughta leave the personal and business flamers at home. Personal experience proves them costly. No threat here, just a statement of fact.

Here's the last question: My age has taught me not to ever trust my future to a silly onslaught like this, have you aged any in the last day or two?

Have a nice life and you can be certain this is my last public conversation with you, and I would love for my Emmons to be placed on an "MSA Plastic Cabinet." Don't know that it would help the tone, but it sure as heck would be easier to carry.

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The spirit be with you!!

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 18 Oct 2002 8:44 am

Life is like a box of chocolates: you never know what suits your taste until you sample all of them. (boy, was that bad or what?)

I have a Rolex, a Monte Blanc pen, and a Mercedes, which perform no better and in some cases, worse than my Casio, Scripto, and Chevy Suburban. I have no idea where I'm going with this so I'll close.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 18 Oct 2002 9:22 am

Good grief!! What's next to assassinate each other about? How many turns should a .011 be wrapped around the shaft of the tuning peg?

Rick Collins wrote:

I doubt it; but I'm not serious.

That's the most insightful post on the subject so far.

I too have the experience of some years behind me and a few of the lessons I've learned is to 1) choose your battles wisely, 2) opt for a discrete retreat if the strongest blow delivered to you is only verbal, and 3) turn off the neon sign that says "this way to the chip on my shoulder."

Oh yeah... IMHO. I still love everyone here, even more than Bobbe Seymour.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 18 Oct 2002 9:31 am

Herb... In all fairness, I think you should love Bobbe as much as you do everyone.

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 18 Oct 2002 9:46 am

Monte Blanc pen? Well, you "one up'd me" on that one!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 18 Oct 2002 9:46 am

I mean, well, Bobbe loves everybody, and I love everybody, and and Bobbe loves me... of course, I'm part of everybody, I guess... and... we both love... aw shucks, there's more love flying around here than there is at a Darrell McCall concert, ferchrissakes!!!

BTW, I love Darrell, and the last time I saw him he and Mona BOTH allowed as how they loved me, too. And of course I love Mona, also.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 18 October 2002 at 10:48 AM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 18 Oct 2002 9:55 am

Stephen O....In response to your MSA pricing comment.

The free enterprise system of competition ultimately makes the decision if a product is priced correctly.

I will however share the fact that MSA never took into consideration how any other steel guitar was designed, their method of manufacture, their parts requirements, the machinery they needed for manufacturing, the material necessary to build their guitar, nor their final sales price.

We simply went about our business of designing and building the Millennium, just as other builders have went about their business.

After we designed the guitar all costs were compiled and analyzed, and the final sales price necessary for MSA to continue to produce guitars declared for itself.