The Steel Guitar Forum

Jerome Hawkes wrote:i understand what you guys are saying, but i can help but notice that most of the steel i hear being used today when artists/producers want a steel guitar - its largely open based tunings played in a 'slide style' more or less - thats the sound they want. i have yet to hear anyone play the C6 tuning, not saying no one has...but i aint hearing it out there.

* i don't mean modern as in avant garde - but modern as in stuff recorded in the last 5-10 years

I cannot see how a tuning as versatile as C6 could be considered dated. The playing style of some musicians using C6 might be dated I guess.

A lot of the "steel" music used by today's musicians / producers I think is more of an electrified slide with a lot of distortion and effects than a steel sound. Not that there is anything wrong with that, if it floats your boat...personally it doesn't float mine for the most part.

I may be hounded clean off of the forum for saying something like this. And I do have to admit to not having heard much of David Lindley and his ilk. I find that though he is better than merely excellent at what he does, I find him to be musically narrow. I don't hear a broad range of sounds there. And I think that is the steel guitar's problem as far as it not being a good time to be a studio player. Steel guitar has been pigeon holed into E9 pedal style country music, David Lindley style bluesy rock and 1950's tourist Hawaiian. The instrument can only go mainstream if and when some of us begin to play mainstream pop in a way that resonates with the general public. C6 looks to me like the tuning that can accomplish this. But wait!! Theres More!! The steel guitar is NOT a chordal instrument. It is a lead instrument. It has much more in common with the violin than with a spanish guitar as far as musical output goes. It plays single notes and double stops and an occasional triple stop. Trying to play chords is not really going to work in the long run (unless you want to add pedals). Although I found that the Jerry Byrd 6 string straight C6 was adequate for this, 8 strings may be better. But I don't think that chord enhancing augmentation such as C6/A7 is the way to go. Rather, it will be something like the Emmons C6 configuration that emphasizes the instruments strengths that will win the day. D-E-C-A-G-E-C-(?) I prefer an A on that bottom string as Emmons and Mike Auldridge (among others) did. But there is room for experimentation here. I find that this string is little used. Ok. I've dug my fox hole and put on my helmut. Have at me!!

"The instrument can only go mainstream if and when some of us begin to play mainstream pop in a way that resonates with the general public."

Ed, I think you hit on the problem here. Just what kind of music would get the attention of the general public today? Where are today's instrumental hits that would amaze listeners of all ages like "Sleep Walk" did in 1959 when much of popular music was shared and appreciated by the different generations?

Johnny Farina says that the record companies are afraid to take a chance on producing an instrumental single regardless of it's musical merit.

"Sleep Walk" was recorded on C#m7 tuning, which was already "dated" by 1959. So was "Teardrop" and other Santo & Johnny hits.

I don't think the C6th or any other tuning is the issue. Tunings of other stringed instruments are generally much older than steel guitar tunings, yet they are not considered dated.

...musically narrow

I agree. Much of that style: rock, blues, and some Americana basically requires simple slides, major chords, root-V power chords, etc. It's more about the tone and the feeling and ambiance of the steel guitar. I think it says a lot about how music has changed over the years and the role of the steel guitar has changed.

guys, guys - we have to be accepting of what/why people chose to listen to what they do. My mom loves Kenny G...i can't take it, and she isn't going to listen to Charlie Parker....doesnt matter. sure, id rather hear someone play an arrangement than shred up and down a guitar neck, but they are the ones living in LA with a hot well built blond and touring in large stadiums while i sit in the music room and play my nice little Jerry Byrd arrangements. and thats my choice btw...i'm not envious...well, maybe the hot blond.

when i was a teenager i was in bands that played teenage stuff and got all the "perks" of being in a band - then someone gave me Buck Owens Live at Carnegie Hall & the Byrds Sweetheart of the Rodeo - it was over...i never looked back...and immediately lost all the perks too...but i followed my inner path

...i sit in the music room and play my nice little Jerry Byrd arrangements

That sounds good to me!

I can hear steel guitar possibilities behind a lot of what Beyonce does. And she is not the only one. We don't have to do instrumentals. We can be a part of a modern pop band. There was a very popular young songwriter that sounded like he had a tricone in his group a few years ago. He's still doing quite well. But the tricone player didn't do much. Again, it was there for the sound effect. A lot more could have come of that if the player had had a broader range of possibilities in his repertoire. Steel guitar can also do anything Kenny G. can do. But pedal E9 and the non pedal open tunings are NOT going to do it. What we need is appropriate exposure. Don't ask me how to get it. Marketing is my weak suit.

Is C6th a dated tuning? Perhaps, depending on how one associates sound with era. All music is symphonic in that it creates a mood. But I believe it is possible to play a piece of music in C6th without creating a specifically 20th Century mood. It will have a lot to do with the player’s level of understanding of the tuning as opposed to simply giving recitals in C6th. (Not that there is anything invaluable about a good recital.)

When people ask for recommendations for learning to play electric steel guitar I always point them in the direction of C6th for its versatility and the amount of material available. But I do not use C6th except if I am transcribing from a recording done in that tuning. I use A6th because I want the major triad on top.

Understandably, there is a lot of affection for Jerry Byrd and his C6th tuning on this forum, right down to recalling his quotes. Here is one, more or less: “Learn one tuning thoroughly before moving on to another.” Was he wrong about that?

From the posted inquiries about what tuning was used on what number, I get the impression that many relatively new players and JB fans alike are switching tunings quite a bit.

At present I am working with Mike Neer’s Modes and Scales for Steel guitar which I rewrite for A6th as I go along. The writing in itself is a good lesson. I would say if C6th seems dated, study Mike’s course before jettisoning it for a "newer" sound. The course will establish just how much we know about C6th. If I ever master A6th, I may embarque on another tuning, but it will not be C6th. One 6th tuning is probably enough.

Doug Beaumier wrote:

...i sit in the music room and play my nice little Jerry Byrd arrangements

That sounds good to me!

Me too ...

I'm a 6 string C6/A7 fan ...

E
C
A
G
E
C#

You wanna go "balls out" ... Tweet the 2nd strong C to C# ... A7 ... there you go ...

More "swing-ish" ... A6

E
C#
A
F#
E
C#

You want something different : E9

E
B
G#
F#
E
D

You want to go old school ... E13

E
C#
B
G#
E
D

6 strings ... Same string gauges ... Just a few turns of the tuning machines

There are a bunch of different tunings that lend themselves better to different songs. I like a wide variety of music an if I had to be stranded on a desert island with only one tuning it would be C6.

Thanks Rick for laying it out.

Are the string gauges based on the C6/A7 notes?
What gauges do you use to avoid breaking strings?

Don't forget B11......

Seriously, if you can play the guitar, no matter what tuning or what instrument, you can captivate people. If you want studio producers knocking down your door, that, I think, has very little to do with your tools just how you use them.

Dobro used to be a Bluegrass instrument.

Is sounding "dated" a bad thing? The term has negative connotations, but think about it...if you play in a string quartet, a big band, a Beatles tribute band, a funk band, an '80s metal hair band, or a Hawaiian outfit, you WANT to sound dated...that's the whole point.

When I started playing steel, I used A6. After a couple of years i switched to Open E, because I was self-conscious of the tuning sounding too "Hawaiian, or "old-timey country-ish". Now I'm back to a 6th chord tuning (E6), and I embrace those sounds, mostly because I've gotten to a point where I can control them...the TUNING (when strummed) may sound dated, but my playing doesn't, unless I want it to.

In a typical week, I play Lady Gaga, Beyonce, Garth Brooks, Led Zeppelin, Black Eyed Peas, Prince, Johnny Cash, and a ton of modern techno and hip-hop tunes all on 8-string, E6 tuned steel guitar...and the tuning sounds great on all of it.

If 6th chord tunings DIDN'T sound dated, I wouldn't use 'em, because that sound is just as important to me as the more "contemporary" ones.

I believe the C6 chord is dated... as well as any 6th chord. The C6th tuning is not.

There haven't been very many hit songs in the last 50 years featuring the 6th chord prominently.

The Beatles ended some of their early songs with a vocal 6th chord. I can't recall hearing a sixth in anything popular since then, with the possible exception of some 80's country.

I love the sixth sound, but I mostly play older material- Big band - Western Swing - Cowboy and Hawaiian songs that just cry out for the sixth chord.

Dom

Mark MacKenzie wrote:Don't forget B11......

B11 ...

E
C#
A
F#
D#
C#

Mitch, I use ...

E 0.017
C 0.018
A 0.020 plain
G 0.022 plain
E 0.032
C# 0.036

But any C6 "set" is fine ... All the tweaked notes are well within the appropriate pitch : tension ratio ... Not even close to any breaking points ...

Personally, I only use C6/A7 & E9 ... And when I want to "melt faces" ( nod to Neer) ... ... I'll retune the E9 to :

E
B
G#
E
E
B

You may laugh ... But when those long haired hippie types all hopped up on their Mary Jane wanna hear George Thorogood ... I'm ready to go

Don't forget us short haired hippie types!

i perceive the problem being interjecting the 6th chord into situations where it does not really belong....just because its there.

when you have a 6th tuning, you are sitting on a 6th bomb. you try to play "around" it and its still staring you in the face ready to be dropped!

same thing with the two left pedals on an E9 steel. nothing worse than hearing that I to IV major sound in a situation where it doesnt belong....just because its there.

the 30s 40s 50s.... 6th chords everywhere. now.. thats a very "dated" sound only if you make use of it in a way that makes it dated in the midst of what is considered more of a today sound... whatever that is.

we throw out NO chords because they are past their prime....they are all very important.

there are no wrong notes....only wrong resolutions.

I actually find it more surprising that the pedal steel version of C6 has not moved on beyond what are essentially Count Basie type of block chords.

One would think that with all those pedals and levers it might be easier to get a greater variety and, for lack of a better word, a more contemporary sound on that instrument.

Contemporary applying of course to my listening habits.

..."when you have a 6th tuning, you are sitting on a 6th bomb. you try to play "around" it and its still staring you in the face ready to be dropped! "

I play mainly single notes and double stops. When I do play a triple stop, I play what is chord appropriate for the song in question. I really don't have this problem. And I have a difficult time understanding it.

"I actually find it more surprising that the pedal steel version of C6 has not moved on beyond what are essentially Count Basie type of block chords. "

This is not the fault of the guitar or the C6 tuning. Jazz and swing made maximum use of harmonic possibilities. It is always possible to do less.

" I use A6th because I want the major triad on top."

I use this as a second tuning. The major triad on top does have its' advantages. The disadvantage I see to this tuning is that is in a register that can get lost in the cachaphony (sp) of other instruments. C6 sings out above the fray.

I agree with all the above comments about learning to OMIT the A string for major chords and in situations where you don't want the "6th bomb"! I like that term. That A string, of course, is valuable because allows us to play full minor chords, harmonized thirds, and helps us in playing scales.

there is an excellent Paul Franklin segment on youtube where he talks in depth about his session career and i realized something he said fits into this discussion about C6. He mentions a new artist in the early 80's named George Stait he got the session call for and was scared to death to put C6 on the commercial record for exactly the "dated' theory we are talking about - and this is Paul Franklin here - you can't call him a player that doesn't know what to do with the tuning or a player limited with his instrument....not to even mention he has pedals to change into any tuning he wants.

with the option of looking back 30 years, it was a great call and established George's sound - but at the time everyone was paranoid about it sounding dated and western swingy. Paul mentions he & producers were very careful with that session

now, the same thing could probably be said for someone today using that heavy phased/flanger tele sound from the 70's - it just screams 70's outlaw country. the Peavey Session 500 even has that sound built into the amp! while on the other hand, someone could do Lindley style playing right out of the 70's today and it would fit just fine - it doesn't have that same stigma.

Maybe people are so use to that slide sound with guitar players like the Allman Bros, Bonnie Raitt, etc that it becomes 'the sound'. the last time i saw Vince Gill, he had pedal steel (Paul Franklin) AND a slide guitar player...

Is there any definition of this "new" or "contemporary" sound as far as dynamics, harmonies and progressions etc.?

David Matzenik wrote:Is there any definition of this "new" or "contemporary" sound as far as dynamics, harmonies and progressions etc.?

sure....anything that leaves out 6th chords....

I think that playing 6th chords over a major is a very dated style, and that's very easy to do on a C6th tuning. But minor 7th chords are still used a lot in modern R&B, and pentatonic lead guitar parts will always be essential to blues. Both of those elements are also easy on C6th lap steel.

I've been playing Latin and reggae music on D6 (a step higher than C6th). I can play western swing or Old Hank country on the same tuning when I need to. I use D6th because it's the same as my pedal steel, which I play a lot, but the theory is the same.

David Matzenik wrote:Is there any definition of this "new" or "contemporary" sound as far as dynamics, harmonies and progressions etc.?

sure....anything that leaves out 6th chords....