Finesse And Meter

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 12 Sep 2002 7:13 am

I was actually 'busting chops' about the bland, drab, uniformity of the C6th sound.
Yes, it's lovely that almost any grip sounds good; makes it easy to just randomly grab some strings and seem like you've thought it all out.

That's not to say that many people haven't devoted TREMEDOUS amounts of thought to it. It's simply that it's EASIER TO FAKE for the dabbler!

And the original point (missed, or more likely ignored, as usual by the same haughty obfuscators) is that it's the E9th that provides the signature sounds of PEDAL STEEL GUITAR!

Now to the point of the thread; I don't know how the 'finesse/metre' came into my playing. I can hypothesize about time spent practicing (with all it's associated subcategories), stage time (again in so many different contexts), exposure (or lack of) to the work of others and how I perceive it, studio time, collaboration w/songwriters/instrumentalists, and other considerations.

What I DO know is that all the subtleties I can introduce at will (or, more accurately, subconsciously) into my playing on steel (E9, thank you very much) and bluegrass/pop b@nj0 (Gibson Mastertone, thank you very much), desert me when I play my newly acquired Tele.

While I can hear and feel what I want to 'say' on guitar, I fail in the execution. I then must surmise that familiarity is what's lacking in my case. Will it take the SAME amount of time to achieve a similar level of accomplishment or is the process accelerated because of (already acquired) related motor skills and theoretical understanding?

It's like porn; I can't define it but I know it when I see it...[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 12 September 2002 at 08:17 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Sep 2002 7:38 am

Chris, thank you for that bit of decorum. Yes...the "jam" I spoke of will, indeed, be in the Balto./D.C. area, and will be sponsored by Boo Miller---to highlight local players, rather than famous ones. (I don't believe a venue or exact date has been determined yet.)

I have always been primarily a bar room and back-up musician (and I use that term loosely

), and I'm not much with "notes and charts and stuff", but perhaps I can dredge up half-a-dozen songs that the sidemen will know, and we can have a good time.

You might want to attend, and either laugh with me...or at me, whichever you deem appropriate.

Details, no doubt, will be posted shortly under "Events and Announcements".

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Sep 2002 8:20 am

And the original point (missed, or more likely ignored, as usual by the same haughty obfuscators) is that it's the E9th that provides the signature sounds of PEDAL STEEL GUITAR!

I do agree that the generally agreed upon definitive "sound" of the steel guitar is on the E9 tuning. No question there, absolutely.

And I also agree that there is more opportunity for playing three note adjacent string grips that "sound good" on the C6 tuning, on the most basic harmonic level. So, I guess I agree that if a player wanted to sound like he was faking it, the C6 would be the place to do it.

Let's be real. If the sound of C6 is fakey, bland, drab, or uniform, it's the responsibility and the shortcomings of we the players who use this tuning.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 12 Sep 2002 8:27 am

Mr. Pollard, sorry, I didn't understand where you were heading, thanks for clearing it up for an unattentive person (me!!). I assure you I didn't ignore anything intentionally, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. Mr. Hinson, I will by all means try to be there, and I assure you I will NOT be laughing at anyone's playing. Although I work about twice a month playing steel, I consider myself horribly mediocre on a good day. I'm a solid bass player, but a relative novice to this pedaled beast! I got to hear Boo Miller play at the Don West benefit, if the players are anywhere near his caliber it ought to be a humdinger of a day!!!![This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 12 September 2002 at 09:30 AM.]

Brad Burch · Post by **Brad Burch** » 12 Sep 2002 9:23 am

Noooooooo Herb, I was just making a joke about "my" limited playing,...like I was fooling anyone in the first place. I thought your whole statement there was right on the point.......and I got a little smile out of it too.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Sep 2002 9:38 am

I am overwhelmed by the latest entries on this thread, whereby the replies have been very informative, civil, and very interesting. The accumulated knowledge of the forum members is a gold mine in disguise.
The input is appreciated, and I enjoy responding to such acquired wisdom.

Bill H.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 12 Sep 2002 10:27 am

...the responsibility and the shortcomings of we the players...

I'm not being contrary for contrariness sake, BUT...

My stance is the diametric opposite of Mr. Steiner's; it is the nature of the TUNING ITESELF that makes the players and their playing generic.

Lord knows I heard enough C6 at the convention Fri. after noon and evening to fully convince me of this position. I heard Hughey, Emmoms, Jernigan, etc. banging away on this thing and making WONDERFUL MUSIC indeed. But it was generic; turn your back and I defy you to ascertain the players identity based on his approach to the C6.

By contrast they presented identifiable and definable stylistic idiosyncracies on the E9.

Sorry Bill, I suppose I'm drifting your topic here.

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 12 Sep 2002 10:57 am

"I defy you to ascertain the players identity based on his approach to the C6."

Ok then! And here are a few that to me are easy to identify simply because I have a good ear. Jernigan, Rugg, Wallace, West. The following guys I haven't listened to in years but their identity still rings clear and they are for the most part straight players from the same mold. Arnold, Eldrige, Emerson, Crowe and Hensley. I can only suggest the more you listen to C6, and you should, the easier it will be for you to figure out not only how to play C6, but to recognize who is on board. If of course, that is what your goals are. I guess critiquing may come easier for some when they know little about it.

Donny, I want to set up next to you in November and STEAL you chops. Don't kid yourself folks, Donny plays as well as he voices his opinion!
Gary Lee

[This message was edited by Gary Lee Gimble on 12 September 2002 at 11:59 AM.][This message was edited by Gary Lee Gimble on 12 September 2002 at 12:00 PM.]

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 12 Sep 2002 11:25 am

I suspected as much Mr. Gimble, get me up there on bass so I can steal both of your licks!!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Sep 2002 2:17 pm

I wouldn't trumpet my observations, of those individuals who decided years ago, that their penchant for a specified tuning is in part, the reason for the dedication put forth over the years. If idiosyncrasies were nonexistent, who would have the courage to try something new? Imagination would go adrift, and changes would be left to future generations. Having a disinclination to enter into a disputatcious test of wit, will at times, hold its rewards. To avoid an issue of relevancy, relating to a steel guitar, assures the would be challenger of one thing; he/she will never be in error, nor will they ever be obliged to reconsider a point made in a controversial matter. The thread, "Finesse And Meter", offers a fertile medium for conjectural observation.

The sustained efforts made to reach plateaus where great artists contemplate their next move, nurtures the intense practice sessions, which will hasten the adaptability of a dream coming true.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 13 September 2002 at 03:14 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 13 September 2002 at 06:12 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 13 Sep 2002 5:37 am

F. Members,

I've been experiencing difficulties while typing out messages. At times the response of a given command does not actuate immediately. Many words can be entered, and then, an extended period of time goes by before the entries can be checked for errors. I can only hope for improvement in the future. "Finesse And Meter" to counter the "overload", would be a
welcome change at this time.

Bill H.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 13 Sep 2002 6:05 am

I've been experiencing difficulties while typing out messages.

PHEW!!! I'm SO thankful you said that!

I thought for the longest time it was just me!?!

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 13 Sep 2002 8:06 am

Me too!!! oh, wait, I'm just a horrible typer. Never mind!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Sep 2002 2:48 pm

Gary is a real fine player...one of Buddy Charleton's proteges. Thank you for those kind words, Gary! I don't play regularly anymore, so I'm the first one to admit I'm not quite what I used to be.

"The mind still races, but the fingers lag behind".

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Sep 2002 3:48 pm

Upon Marty's posted request, I have read carefully his words in the "C6th-cop out" thread.)

In short these are the musical observations that I concluded from his words.

1. Marty said he owned a c6th once and he used it as an armrest.

2. Then after sitting behind the tuning recently, he concluded that all of the grips he could find sounded generic and from that ONE experience he assumes the same holds true for everyone else. "That's wishful thinking!"

Herb,

You are Tiger Woods debating with someone who believes there is only one club needed to play the perfect game of golf. Its pointless. He doesn't get it.

In a summary, based on his words, an admission of his C6th playing ability, Marty's insight into what is possible, or not, is blind at best, yet he tries to convince anyone who'll listen that he has the knowledge to say exactly that.

To say whether or not we like the sound of something is a personal opinion issue. You'll get no argument from me there. Expertise IS required to debate the silly assumptions stated in that original thread.

I think bOb was right. Flamebait was the intent.

Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 13 September 2002 at 05:02 PM.]

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 13 Sep 2002 4:30 pm

One must learn, and then learn to think...

Is your mind like a window or a closed door?

A man was told that he was the best until he was passed by the rest and then he faced the truth.
He started to climb again.

Can any man be right about everything
all the time?

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 13 Sep 2002 4:46 pm

Seems like this has turned into another flame-out, huh? If we accept that E9 is THE sound of the pedal steel guitar, then wouldn't this automatically mean the C6 was the experimental neck?
And, as a raw beginner at steel, I have a hard time distinguishing one steeler from another. But, the more I listen, the more the subtleties that make up each player's style begin to emerge.
When I first started playing bluegrass, everybody sounded like Monroe, or Flatt and Scruggs(to my untrained ears). But, as I studied the music, I learned to identify bands, and then individual musicians. But, I was DRIVEN to learn this music, and to know the people who played it. Bluegrass Dobro is tuned to "G", and it all sounds the same, right? I mean, it's all either two-finger trills, or rolls that came from Earl Scruggs? Or, is it possible to tell the difference between Josh Graves, Mike Auldridge, Jerry Douglas, Rob Ickes, Kim Gardner, etc? Hey, they're all playing "G" tuning, right? See, it's MY conjecture that we only learn to identify players through study of their styles, and, more importantly, a burning desire to play the same music. I have heard Herby Wallace say that Speedy West was his hero, but wouldn't we all agree that Herby only sounds like Speedy when he does it on purpose?
Jazz, the blues, country, heavy metal...It ALL sounds alike, until we become students of the music, and disciples of its players.
Finesse is a pretty good synonym for style, and style is based on an individual's influences, and the interpretation thereof.
Except me. My style is based on the stuff I DON'T know how to do! I think it was Paul Desmond who said,"I'm gonna win an award for playing the fewest notes, and for playing them softer than anybody." Or words to that effect. GOD BLESS.[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 13 September 2002 at 05:47 PM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 13 Sep 2002 5:06 pm

Well, I suppose that my lack of sufficient experience playing C6 disqualifies me from presenting my opinion of its sonic qualities. And of course, any assertion I might make in attempting to delineate the idiomatic uniqueness of the E9 is undercut, a priori, by my prejudiced personal preference.

I won't tire you w/those same arguments over whether only pros should be allowed to critique within a given sphere of endeavor.

And why someone of so lofty stature as Herb should waste time defending a position, any position, held by such a bumbling Neanderthal as myself is beyond comprehension.

But the fact that YOU, the exalted Paul 'Paulsied' Franklin himself would stoop to address me BY NAME leaves me with nothing more to do but huddle in the corner and await my imminent deliquescence.

I lose!

I'm SUCH a MORON...[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 13 September 2002 at 06:09 PM.]

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 13 Sep 2002 5:42 pm

Marty...I guess one had to grow up with the instrument to appreciate all the different tunings and pickers.I still take my six string lap steel to jams and play a little ting a ling and so forth.I remember learning the harmonics, tear drops, that Wiggins played on Bouquet of Roses.The only teacher I had was a wind up phonograph and some 78rpm records.Now I am 69 years young and struggling with a LeGrande 111.I'm not fast or very diversified.But what I do play is right on and most of all from the heart.
I still dream of playing Lime House Blues like Jerry B.
I only have another twenty years to learn all I would like to know.
Bottom line...Don't Ever Quit Learning.

Buddy Van

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 13 Sep 2002 10:17 pm

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 14 Sep 2002 2:46 am

Paul F.,

Please excuse the edit. This Forum has been a great learning experience, and I will try to follow the examples set forth by the majority of its members.

Bill H.[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 16 September 2002 at 07:25 PM.]Bill Hankey[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 17 September 2002 at 02:48 AM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 14 Sep 2002 8:58 am

Bill, no offense intended, OK? But can anybody understand what you're talking about?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Sep 2002 9:09 am

There are many cultures around the world where the people think that "all white folks look alike". What does that tell you?

(If you think this is an irrelevant comment, think again...)

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 14 Sep 2002 1:36 pm

"What does that tell you?"

They should marinate their evening meal in Phillips O Magnesia to enhance their color perception!
Is that right Jim?
Gary Lee

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Sep 2002 2:11 pm

Um... try again, Gary. On second thought, maybe you'd better let someone else try again...