The Steel Guitar Forum

This is Lloyd - using the "tone" that (arguably) helped make him famous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5XbKGLjF_w

This is also Lloyd, probably about 15 years later:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRMe1c5qi9w

Will anyone here try and say the tones on these two recordings are the same?

I wonder

To me, with some notable exceptions, the West Coast guys are far easier to pick out as stylists than the Nashville guys.

On this very Forum, questions abound as to "who was the steel player -- was it Rugg, Weldon, Hughey," etc. At times when a definitive answer is given, some are reluctant to accept it.

Seldom, if ever, have I read of anyone who cannot hear the difference between Brumley and Mooney, West and Murphey, Boggs and Remington, etc.

b0b..to address your concept of a variety of tones to color songs differently, i can see that this would be a nice offering in a band.
now not to knock that, but take jaydee for instance. he has a really cool distinctive edge that he gets as he attacks each string. i know i would be more than happy watching a desert rose band concert with him using just that same tone on every tune....as is always the case, it seems. the more of that 'one thing' the better in some peoples hands.

on the other hand buddy's 'one for the road' has some big sonic differences in some songs that are quite effects laden. but you still hear the tonal consciousness of mr. emmons.

I agree, Chris, but that distinctive edge on the attack isn't tone, it's technique. Tone is the resonant frequency response, not the envelope.

One of the steel players whose tone (and playing) that I admire most is Nashville's Mike Johnson. I attended his seminar in Dallas last year, and I can tell you that he is a real tonehound. He goes to the n'th degree to get that special crystal clear, yet full bodied tone of his. I can't stand thin and piercing highs on a steel guitar, and Mike Johnson's tone could never be described as thin. I can tell his playing instantly because he has so many 'identity licks', but regardless of what he plays, his tone is always full and clear.

Interesting point that Donny Hinson makes about players tone changing over the years. Tom Brumley's seemed to go from one extreme to the other in his career. From the metalic and bright tone on his Tom Cattin' LP, to the fat and rich tone on his In Time album. The playing on both albums is sublime, but the tone on both is worlds apart. Likewise, Buddy's black album steel tone is very clean and top end biased, but his later recordings are much fuller with reduced highs. Lloyd's tone on his Chart recordings is nowhere near as full as that on his Monument recordings, and those that he did with Don Williams.

I find J D Maness's live tone so bright that it crucifies my ears, yet his playing is wonderfully precise and clean.

I think that sometimes we get tone and style confused.

" how important is individual tone to you "

For me, very important.

I have had many gigs where I am tweaking the amp for the tone, and other gigs where it just seems right all night. Of course, there are many things we can change over the years, from playing technique, pickups, leads, amps, settings and the list goes on forever.

But I always finding myself trying to sound like Lloyd but of course never achieved it. I sometimes think I've got close, but only Lloyd will sound like Lloyd and the same with other players. Get a group of steelies playing the same guitar with the same amp settings, and we will all sound different, because of our different playing techniques.

I have nice gear now and if I don't get the 'tone' from it, it's me, and my playing, or indeed, my ears I think. I still find the need to play my steel in my practice room "really loud", I just like to feel the music as well as hear it. I will of course end up pretty deaf one day if I don't alter my ways...

To add to this interesting thread, I found myself getting the old records out last week.
Them early recordings, and the steel sound were much different than what we are used to hearing today. I still love them old recordings, but you wouldn't really want to duplicate their steel "tones" today, at gigs, or indeed on recordings. Well, I wouldn't anyway.

I must say though, the steel playing on these old recordings was, and still is, outstanding.
I owe everything to these players, as I have, over the years learned everything from them.

The only other steel I sat behind besides my Sierra was a Sho-Bud, so I'm not a specialist. But I enjoy it when players switch to certain guitars like old Fenders to give the track a "vintage" vibe.

The use of various effects on certain recordings aside, I have to wonder if each individual player's tone has changed that significantly, or is the marked difference we are hearing due to the vast improvement in today's recording techniques?

David Nugent wrote:The use of various effects on certain recordings aside, I have to wonder if each individual player's tone has changed that significantly, or is the marked difference we are hearing due to the vast improvement in today's recording techniques?

One thing for sure - 40 years ago we were all almost exclusively using single coil pickups. Nowadays, humbuckers seem to predominate. That alone could be a major factor in the modern tone.

I think we all play better if we are getting the sound we like. And 'sound' includes tone.

Chris : I was a fool. I found out that individual tone to me was worth about 5 K a year for 4 years as I was in search of tone , while not completely understanding what the word tone really even meant, but I knew what I was after... growing to this understanding of what tone sounds like in a band vs playing in the basement. And Now having 4 steels, 5 sound systems, and 3 different setups of combined demon spawn, and coming up on my 5th year, I now understand a little more of what tone emits favorably to the situation in playing tracks vs LIVE.

This is where I came from and My tone seems to set my mood, It was highly important to me as a beginner right away playing tracks, And just as important to me playing with any band. Sounding good or unique is very important,

Truely Learning how to capture what you`re really after depends on how much you practice with only one steel and one amp setup only, at your budgets cost, you will eventually find truely whats in you and that guitar system as one. This will make you the happiest camper out there. I`ve found out that Money cannot buy your tone it will only set you back! A precise volume seems to be another major key in delivering your tone. To soft or to loud does`nt cut it, but that`s another subject.

The mystery in finding it in each guitar is very addictive to me. Makes me so crazy I gotta walk away sometimes and just chill out, What a learning curve it has been, But I love it alot...

Craig

To me and my playing tone is the utmost of importance. I seldom fiddle with my settings but to have tone on my Match-Bro. Sometimes no matter what, I think I have a thin tinny sound and other times like last night I really was satisfied, the guitar just sang and expression was easy. Yea there is a mood factor but I think for me the acoustics of the venue is what really is a minus or plus for my playing. Last night we played in a church hall. We are a small three piece with a great hall, oh yea the audience were really into the music too.

My favorite remark about tone is from Randy Beavers, who wrote (paraphrasing) that: "Tone is what happens when you get your technique together well enough that your soul comes through."

Interesting point that Donny Hinson makes about players tone changing over the years. Tom Brumley's seemed to go from one extreme to the other in his career. From the metalic and bright tone on his Tom Cattin' LP, to the fat and rich tone on his In Time album. The playing on both albums is sublime, but the tone on both is worlds apart.

In this case, maybe the difference between a ZB and an Anapeg?

Barry Blackwood wrote:

Interesting point that Donny Hinson makes about players tone changing over the years. Tom Brumley's seemed to go from one extreme to the other in his career. From the metalic and bright tone on his Tom Cattin' LP, to the fat and rich tone on his In Time album. The playing on both albums is sublime, but the tone on both is worlds apart.

In this case, maybe the difference between a ZB and an Anapeg?

Could be - good point.

buddy e. mentioned, when discussing 'other' brands of steels he played, that most were great. couldn't tell much difference between a few. but he did qualify that by saying 'some' would speak to you, encouraging you to 'go for it' more than others.
and i imagine that came down to the individual guitar itself as much as the brand.

so anyway, this thread has clarified somewhat that
tone, style and technique are an interwoven phenomenon. becoming one's 'sonic personality'...

jim, i like the randy beavers quote.

and it all relies on good pitch to start with.
and the bit about style developing around your own limitations is absolutely true for me.

i'm glad we had this talk!

Interesting! I am very picky about my tone. Dr. Z is a friend of mine, and I've been trying to get him to build a steel amp for years. I talked to him about the tone I desired from my Kline Uni; clear, no mushy boomy bass,I wanted a sound like a brand new grand piano with new strings. I could not get my sound with the Vegas I had. Never bonded with that amp! Sterile SS sound. Back to a twin. I 've had guys sit in, and adjust the amp to their "sound." Often it was mushy, bassy, or really "nasally." Yuck. I get my sound, set it, and forget it. Don't change the amp settings once I've found it. I do change how I pick though, for different sounds. No complaints ever, only compliments,,, so that's the way I go.

I love to listen to the masters , at times a phrase is played with such incredible tone it makes we want to practice !

Loyd, Buddy, Paul, Mike etc., their tone and playing inspires me but not to the point of running out to spend another $5000 on gear !

For me personally I don't chase the holy grail "edge tone" . My gear is very consistent, I like it and I am pleased . I feel I sound the same each time out. Thats whats important to me...

Tony Glassman wrote:Tone trumps everything else....

and maybe after being in tune too! It's a good concept but I feel PLAYING trumps everything else !

Everyone of us are individuals with our own peculiarities. Our voices are different that God gave us, so is the sound that comes from our fingers different. Sometimes there are voices that sound similar, but still they're different. To sound like someone else, that we esteem highly, makes us feel that we have accomplished something! If someone would tell me I sounded like Buddy, or Lloyd, or Paul, or John, I would consider it a compliment. But as yet, no one has said anything except they like my tone! I told John Hughey that I sounded more like him than he does!! He responded with a big Ha! Ha! just like I wanted him to, because he and I knew, and everybody else, that it's not true!

That's a nice personal story about Mr. Hughey. His tone and style drew me into pursuing steel well before I even knew what his name was.

As a former six-string slinger - I spent a lot of time and money pursuing tone. From the player's perspective - a lot of six string "tone" has to do with "guitar feel" and "amp feel", and that's a pretty subliminal and personal thing. The gear has to respond to you the way you want it to, or else you're fighting it. When those 'subliminal' things come together, you can find a higher level as a musician.

I'm not at nearly an advanced enough stage to know a lot about pushing tone to advance my steel playing...but the "feel thing" that was important with six string seems to be found moreso in getting picks that fit and feel right, picking them on a place on the strings that has the right amount of 'give' (which I find at around the 24th fret, against conventional wisdom to pick closer to the pickup), getting the pick gauge and materials right for the base tone that suits one's taste - and how all that ties together with your blocking style....and as far as signal chain - getting the right cable between the guitar and amp, because that seems to have a tremendous effect on the raw tone. There is definately a big difference in amp feel between my Peavey steel amp and my tube guitar amps, and right now I prefer the feel of the solid state amp - I'm liking my amp tone better cutting at 500Hz than 800Hz....so even that's a bit off the beaten path.

When I reflect on my 30 or so years of playing six string, the tones that inspired me the most were from some of the early equipment I used to own. Maybe there's just some kind of bonding that happens when a person is first learning. The tone you happen to have (eg. through purchases made out of frugality and naivity) has an influence on your early stylistic growth. Then, as one matures as a player - one looks for equipment that better suits that style. Very similar with my old beat up acoustic guitar..It aint much, but it sounds and feels right to me, and it's not going anywhere.

DH brings up a good point. My gigging tone got better or at least more consistent when I started practicing at louder volumes. For me playing with my volume knob above 5 is different than playing with it at 3 or below. I think volume was intimidating to me, before I started practicing with it.

JC that's a great quote from Randy Beavers.

: Tone to me is when you are playing, everything sounds so good it feels like it is coming out of your right hand; and makes you feel like you want to make it even sound better. I know it sounds crazy, but it happens to me quite often.


Willie SIMS