The Steel Guitar Forum

Not having a LeGrande III, I can't say for sure. But I would say the SAME amount as a LeGrande II does when a C6 pedal is pressed.

Here is my reasoning: The anti-detuner device is not engaged UNTIL a given pedal is depressed on E9th, UNLESS the guitar has the device installed on the C6 neck as well.

Which I understand, is not too many. In other words, while it is availabe on both necks, most opt' to have it only on the E9th neck. Its cost just doesn't justify it. BE would be an exception, because he is one of few that plays more on C6 than E9th.

I do not know whether Buddy has it on his C neck.

In another thread, someone posted that bowing of the cabinet IS the root cause of so-called" cabinet drop, because E9th strings drop just as much when C6 pedals are pressed. He added that because the pedals on the C neck are closer to the middle, the drop would be even more. Or words to this affect. I have not thought about that in years.

So tell you what, I have a LeGrande II sittin in my music room. I am going to flat find out. I will let ya know later.

That WOULD prove it once and for all. My guess it, it 'taint so. IF it is, I will be the first to say it!

carl

Ok,

I did it (jes lack ah had gud cents! )

Below are the parameters and the readings.

Stats:

1. In order to make the test evenly reliable, I chose to chime the 6th string at the 12th fret, because it is a .022P and even normal picking can throw the measurement way off. The only other (better) way I know of is to use an Ebow. But I don't own one.

2. I used a tuner I purchased from Emmons' that has proven to be quite accurate. It is an analog (needle) type.

3. I compared the drop on string 6 on the E9th neck ONLY during the testing.

4. I used ONLY the A pedal and the 6th pedal.

5. The A pedal pull rod is about 2 and 3/8 inches from the right edge of the left front leg.

6. The 6th pedal is about 15 and 1/4 inches from the right edge of the left front leg. Or, pretty close to being in the middle of the guitar.

7. I waited for the "attack" of chiming the string to subside before noting the reading.

8. My tuner is calibrated in 10's of "Cents" meaning, each line reprents exactly 10 full cents of movement up or down.

9. Because of this, accurate interpolation is a must. Many have not had experience in this procedure. What has to be done is to "see" invisible lines when viewing, where each line represents 1 cent (or less).

This is not easily done without experience.

I am blessed with having been taught how to do this with RCA in my working career when reading volt ohmeters using a needle. It takes some practice to say that it is 4 cents (volts) versus 5.5 cents, etc.

But it CAN be done and in some cases people have with much experience honed it to a very accurate scenario.

The findings:

1. A pedal pressed--6th string E9th dropped 9.2 cents.

2. 6th pedal pressed--6th string E9th dropped .8 cents.

Enough said. I stand on my premise that most of the Cabinet drop is NOT in fact coming from the cabinet bowing.

I will not debate it further.

carl

Just using my little brain, could this problem be solved by the use of trussing. Maybe the knee levers could be attached to the trussing.rick

Carl
Thanks for doing that test.
The other half of the test would be to measure the drop of the .022 plain, not with the A pedal, but rather with your B strings tuned to C# using the tuning kys.

Frank,
The MSA D-10 and S-12 are constructed using carbon fiber epoxy prepregs (sorry no plastic). The body laminate consists of woven carbon fabrics and a foam core with multiple plys of carbon uni-directional reinforcement on the load-bearing axis (parallel to the strings). This uni reinforcement tremendously
reduces any bending or deflection generated by string loads.

The composite Body of the Millennium has the sound characteristics of wood while possessing other attributes which wood does not have.

Consistency is achievable with composite material, therefore, each Millennium will sound exactly the same, while the sound generated from each piece of wood varies due to age, moisture content, tightness of grain, etc. All these inherent variables relative to wood create inconsistency, which explains why each wood guitar, even the same brand, can have different tonal characteristics.

In addition, composite material does not recognize temperature variances, neither prolonged nor sudden, and composite material weighs far less and is many times stronger than wood.

At this time we believe sound files to have the potential of being controversial due to the fact that one must accept the fairness relative to the way the sound file is recorded and presented.
Kyle

Earnest,
I've done that experiment on my guitar that exhibits similar behavior to Carl's and my conclusion is that it's BOTH pedal-related AND tension-related.

G# (0.022") tuned to 0
press A pedal==> -9.1 cents
press A+F==>-9.9
tune B's to C#==>-4.2

I also experience +2.2 cents RAISE when E is lowered to D on 8 and +2.5 when both 8 and 4 are lowered to D# (2nd string D is also lowered to C# on that lever).

I believe that flexibility between the nut and the bridge is a key factor. FWIW.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

To add to Larry's post: I believe that cabinet flexibility is essential to good tone. In my experience, rigid steels have a very poor tone.

I believe that is true, Richard. I know that Jerry Fessenden has said that both he and Paul Franklin, Sr. subscribe to that theory.

The trick is to get a happy medium. I can live with a half cycle or even one (2-5 cents) without serious tuning problems. I'd be happy with that on the guitar in question.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Hey Carl thanks for confirming what I also have been talking about in all my post on this subject. I did that test many years ago....and what has always been my theory of the Axle is doing this stuff.
It's the axle folks not the cabinet. There are several things to do to reduce the amount your particular guitar has.....and the way the axle is supported and what the axle actually is.
There are several genious builders that I know....that have corrected this many many years ago....but they are not promotional/advertising assembly line type folks......so if you want to get rid of cabinet drop....get one of their guitars built for you....or live with what you have and know the things you can do to reduce it for your guitar.
Have fun.
Ricky

Ricky,
If that's so, how come when I tune the B's to C#, it still drops -- about half of what it does with the pedal? You'd think the axle only comes into play if the changer was working, wouldn't you? I think there are at least three things going on that contribute to unpulled notes changing their pitch. But what do I know? I'm not even a good mechanic.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

If it's the cabinet, you would see the same amount of drop on the E string of the back neck as you would on the front, wouldn't you? "Axle drop" would only affect the pedaled neck, "cabinet drop" would affect both. Right?

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

b0b,
All three of my pedal guitars are single neck guitars so I can't really test that hypothesis. The one with the least drop is the only one on a double frame. Go figure. (actually it's a push-pull which probably does explain it)

What you say is probably true for a D-10, but it is possible that, since torque is applied to primarily the front left quadrant (peghead end) that the amount of flex could be disproportionate toward the front. But, like I say, I am neither engineer nor physicist -- nor mechanic.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 June 2002 at 04:46 PM.]</p></FONT>

It might be the axle in some guitars but I built a guitar with a 1/2" carbide changer axle with an additional support between the 5,6,and 7th strings and the addtional support had adjustable tension pulling away from the nut end(ie.- against the pull of the strings) and I found that it influenced the drop (that had been about 3-4 cents) about 1/2 cent- regardless of how tightly the adjustment was set. Don Christianson said that it was negligible and I shoulda listened-- ah well- it was a fun experiment~~ onward soldiers! I will admit that on one guitar that had a serious drop I changed my 6th string on Jerry Fessenden's recommendation from a.022p to a .022w and it lowered the drop by 6 cents! Go figure~~ (thanks Fessy- you my hero!!!)<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 28 June 2002 at 05:18 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 28 June 2002 at 05:21 PM.]</p></FONT>

We always played with what we had. Sure, we had cabinet drop, but, we delt with it. I played an old Sho`Bud for years. We did not let it bother us. I still have the same guitar today. Massive cabinet drop. but, that is what we were used to. It was fun!

I want to ad, I played these Sho~Buds for years before I knew anything about cabinet drop. For over twenty five years, I played not knowing about this condition. But now, it seems to be a real issue. I must be an old foggie. regards, Lonny

Hey Larry I'm not sure I understand what your saying?? If you tune the B's to C# how come what happens????
Here is more info....
When you push a pedal that is activating the finger to pull(raise)...then the finger is pulling down on the axle; therefore it lets tension off the strings around it...ie.4th string;6th string....when "A" pedal is pushed.....now both A and B pushed will let even more tension off the 4th string(it not being activated with anything)and there you have strings going "flat".
When you lower a string.....you are letting tension off that particular string/finger and therefore letting tension off the axle...and so strings around that function will go sharp.
You can reduce some of these happenings with your already bad axle'd steel.
Use an .018 for your "B" string...and use a .022 wound for your "G#" 6th string. If you just have to have that G# lower a whole tone.....Move that function to lower your 7th string a whole tone(same movement but up two frets with "b" pedal down); then put a 6th string lower a 1/2 tone on another knee lever....and you can still get your pedals down movement to the b7th chord.
Make sure all your pedals and knee levers stop on a firm stop(a screw mounted on bracket into the wood or metal piece)and the knee or pedal has to hit that stop at the time of proper pitch...so there is no extra movement when engaged harder than a normal movement.....and therefore it won't pull extra hard on the axle eventhough the tone has been reached(oh and mashing harder is not bending/bowing the cabinet..ah...ha...it's just pulling or letting off more tension on the axle...duh).
Also if you can replace the axle with a titainium bar stock....this would be the hardest metal and if you got it chromed this would be the ultimate....(hey Jim...chrome that carbide pal).
Also put springs on the knee levers that are raising...so that the knee lever goes and comes back with better action than just depending on the string to bring it back. And make sure the pedals that are raising strings....have good tight springs on them..."well tight enough that don't bother your action".....but the stops on all these must be solid.
Ok there is more....but that's all for now.....oh and I know two builders that are building pedal steels that don't have any of these current problems.......but that's my secret......ah.....ha....but I do hope this helps and clears some things up.....oh and I do have a Double Masters Degree in Engineering....for those that didn't know .
Ricky

On my Sho-Bud I get the 6th string on E9 drops more when I press the 5th pedal (C6).
So in case of this guitar I think the body is flexing. An easy way to test this is to press your thumb in front of the neck, near the 12th fret and put some pressure on it. Look at the meter, it tells a lot. This way you can test a single neck as well.
I conclude that ther are 2 problems that alone or combined cause the problem: the cabinet flexing and the changer axle flexing.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom

Ricky, Larry's test is to check the 6th string drop by raising the B's-C# with the A pedal, then compare that to the drop caused by raising the B's-C# with the tuning keys instead.

I'm heading to Gene Field's shop today and hope to compare detuning between one of his GFI's and my Dekley. I'll let you know my findings.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Ricky,
The F# to G# does not replace G# to F# for me. I have both and use them differently. For example, I like to have three strings, starting with 8, that are 1/2 tone apart for chromatic stuff, like you'd play on on the first four strings of E9. So I lower the 7th to F and lower the 6th to F# and have E, F, and F# together. I don't know any other way to do this. I've been using the G# to F# pull for 27 years and it's difficult for me to give it up. Furthermore, I have to raise G# to A#, which can be done on a pedal, but it's pushing a wound .022 pretty hard to raise and lower a whole step -- a lot of pedal travel. A plain one does it like a champ -- but the larger string core (022 vs 012 or something on the 22W) makes it much more susceptible to temp changes and cabinet/axle/string tension detuning. I don't feel that a wound sixth is an option for me. It would be an easy solution.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

I'm back from Gene Fields shop, but we didn't get a chance to compare our guitars side by side. He's a busy man and still says that my guitar had drop back in '85 that was comparable to MCI's.

He says his guitars have drop too, despite people posting that GFI's don't. He measures about 4 cents drop when he tests.

He showed me his changer and roller nut housings that are aluminum extrusions with the shaft holes extruded in the raw stock. He mills slots for the changer fingers and nut rollers, reams the holes, and uses 3/8" drill rod for his changer shaft and 1/8" (I think) shaft for the rollers. He sees no deflection in either, and says support between the fingers, when done right, does work.

Larry I have to agree that the F# to G# does not replace the G# to F#. That's why in my previous post I said F# "lower" a whole tone.....so that's F# to E on the 7th string. Then if you have a G#(6th)lower a half tone on another lever...you would still have your half tone chromatic moves your used to.....but have to think about it differently........but hey; I can dig....something you've been doing for that long(can't teach an old dog new tricks thing--been there done that)....that's why I change a couple of my knee levers around and function differently about every 2 weeks on my Sho~bud....so I can continually think about what's going on under there and what they are doing; instead of by memorization and/or automatic movements.....but that's just me and what I need to do to progress....and it is "NOT" neccessary.
Also I understand now what you(Larry) was saying about the "A" pedal raise to C# and comparing to raise to C# via tuning peg(thanks Jim).
The string is still sitting on the finger that is held by the axle......so indeed if you put any pressure on the axle ie. pedal engaugement or string enguagement....that will cause the tension on the axle and cause ajoining strings to go flat depending on how much. The ideas I gave above are to reduce that tension or un-tension.....and will not completely remove the problem.
However brings me to Marco.
Yes indeed if you pull or push on the guitar.....there will be movement. But we don't pull and push on the guitar when we play. We activate mechanical movements to move strings. If the mechanical parts are set up to "Not" pull on the guitar....then you would not have the problem you described. As I explained above about the stops; if they are not set up properly.....then yes you will be pulling on the guitar.....but if a pull is stopped before it pulls down on the body where the leverage is......this will reduce or eliminate that....depending on the engineering of how it was set up in the first place.
Jim......Awesome relays about Gene's designs thank you. When I lived in Mansfield....I went over to Gene's house a few times to chat(I was always trying to get his parts to help my Emmons out at the time; which he does NOT like to do..ha)......He is another Genious builder and engineer.....and everything he has built and mechanically designed have been flawless.
At this point I'm sure everyones asking("hey ricky why don't you build a pedal steel"......YEAH SURE THEY ARE.....ah....ha).....but I'm more interested in Golf Club and Golf Course design.......So There!!!!
I'm sorry if I come off like talking down to folks......but if you don't have it by now.....you won't any more questions you can e-mail me.....as I can't post on this subject anymore......it's taking too much Golf time now......ah.....ha


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Ricky Davis


<small>My Homepage
Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@aol.com

It's a little late to join in on the detuning issue, but better late than never. In my opinion, there is more than one factor involved, body drop being one of them. I used to believe in total rigidity with heavy thick bodies (Fender). This is fine for a western swing sound but today's Nashville sound requires resonance in the body. Without resonance the tone changes. Based on this, I don't believe a perfect body for no detuning would be a perfect body for tone. I do believe we should get as close as we can without sacrificing tone.
During my time at Fender R&D, we spent a large portion of our time troubleshooting for the production line as well as the service center. A Fender 2000 was sent from our service center with a detuning problem. This was my first encounter with this problem. After close inspection I found a lot of extra screws through the frame and into the body. The original assembly had 4 screws per body, two at each end. The cable type bell cranks were attached to the frame, not the body. This allowed all of the pedal and foot pressure to be applied to the frame without affecting the body. After removing the extra screws, the problem went away. As Leo Fender always overbuilt for strength, I believe he encountered the problem and solved it by using only four screws.
A truss rod system was tried by Red Rhodes in '86 with unsatisfactory results. The truss rod will counterbalance the strings but when a pedal is pressed, the system is unbalanced again. The truss rod helped a little but not enough to make it worthwhile.

<SMALL>today's Nashville sound requires resonance in the body. Without resonance the tone changes. Based on this, I don't believe a perfect body for no detuning would be a perfect body for tone. I do believe we should get as close as we can without sacrificing tone.</SMALL>

Well said! There you have it, the gospel according to Gene. (Similar comments have also been made by Paul Franklin Sr. and Jerry Fessenden. )

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

I have been following this topic with great interest as it has stumped me. I have built a few guitars during my many years years on the planet and although I don't subscribe to the cabinet drop therory as Larry Bell described his results tunning the B to C# and operating the cross shafts with a wrench which both methods resulted in the 6th string drop.
I have this week performed another test which was done while changing strings. First let me say I play a 12 string. I have 2 12 string steels. One has a 24" scale and is on a single frame. The other has a 24 1/4" and is on a double frame. Both guitars have the same drop aprox 9-10 cents,on the 6th string.
I removed the 1st string and the 6th string raised +10 cents. I tuned it back down to G# with the needle centered. Pressed the A pedal and the 6th dropped 10 cents. I then removed the 2nd string and the 6th raised +15 cents. Tunned it back down to center the needle and pressed the A pedal and The 6th bropped 2 cents. I removed the 3rd string and the 6th raised +18 cents. Following the proceedure again centering the needle, pressed the A pedal with a drop of 2 cents. Same thing again with the 4th string removed and there was no drop on the 6th string with the A pedal. This test leads me to think the problem is with the changer axel or the tuner. The tuners on both guitars are keyless. However I am thinking more in the area where the body has a large hole cut in it to allow the changer mechanism go thru and reducing the strength on the cabinet in this area. That may also lead to a double neck detuning when the c neck pedals are activated. Well I wanted to add my 2 cents worth to the topic and perhaps some smart person will someday fing the cause. I don't think the Emmons crowbar solves the problem, it covers it up.