The Steel Guitar Forum

I started out on a D10 and when playing the 6th neck , realized that it did not make sense to me as a beginner ..... I bought a tape from Jeff Newman on the Universal , and even without a U12 steel guitar , a little light went off in my head ....It all seemed to make sense .....I bought my first U12 and mimicked what I saw on Jeff's tape .... I went from playing nothing to playing simple swing in a couple of days time , and best of all , it all made sense as to the positions I was landing on ,and the grips I was using .... It's one thing to copy someone elses moves , but it's quite another when you UNDERSTAND the move .... There have been arguements back and forth over whether or not you can play everything on a U12 that you can on a D10 .....I stay away from these arguements .... I know that there is FAR MORE music that is laying under a U12 than I will ever get to in a lifetime , and it's an easier format , and a better sounding and playing format for me ....YMMV .....Jim

Well that will clear things up for a beginner. I am sure that will clarify things.

Pete Burak wrote:

Tom Gorr wrote:
...Which brings me to the major drawback of the u12 with the typical 5x7 newman...missing most of the "six styled" lever moves that a stretched out D10 has...and so I'm seriously considering moving into a D-neck. I want hughey's copedent.

Tom, With all due respect, aren't you the guy who wants to make the S12U thing work on a 5x5???
fwiw, I think you've missinterpreted Jeff Newmans intent with regard to his S12U setup.
It was never meant to even duplicate a D10, and his basic S12U copedant is actually a 7x4 with no LKR.
Jeff's thing was to give a student a single neck Universal tuning that would allow him to duplicate anything he would need to play Steel in a gigging band. For example, regarding the D10 standard P4, Jeff would say, "Nobody uses it anymore"... meaning, there is no song that you would play on the bandstand that you can't play
Larry Bell shows on his website that you can duplicate 100% of the standard D10 changes on an S12U.


I have seen a lot of loaded-up 12 strings of various flavors, so I'm thinking you can get Hughey's setup on an S12U if you wanted it.
It is listed in the thread I linked below, along with several other C6th pedal/lever setups.

But you have to understand, in the end, it's not a D10.
As I have said before, S12U is like the Corvette of the industry... You're not going to pull stumps or pick up a load of hay with one like an F250 (D10), but they are fun as heck to burn around town in!

Some standard D10 setups:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... s+copedant

We'll said. Hey, I own a Corvette and a Silverado pickup.

Larry bell makes the good counterpoint that there is no restriction regarding center cluster of a larger set of C6 lever moves.

I'm in the middle of a turning point with my current copedent, and probably my guitar, too. An S body with a 2u 2d changer isn't a corvette, it's a model A. I'm reasonably happy with it, but just as guys flip guitars looking for 'the one', I'm more interested in finding the 'perfect' (cough) copedent and tuning (all very subjective stuff) and part of that requires having enough space in the undercarriage.

Getting back to the original topic of learning on a universal . . . When I took up pedal steel about four years ago, I started out on a U12 with a pretty standard 8+5 copedent -- despite the fact that I wanted to play classic E9-style country and had not much interest in western swing. I'm almost 100% self-taught on the pedal steel using standard E9th teaching material. Never did I feel that adapting the E9 material to the uni was a problem. It really didn't take long at all until I could read E9 tab, mentally adapt it for the missing D string, and play it. I mean, obviously I had the usual seemingly endless learning curve on the physical aspects of playing the beast, but the translation from E9 tab to the uni really wasn't a problem.

At one point after a few months, I took four lessons from the nearest teacher (who, unfortunately, was not very near at all). He started out carefully altering his tab to make it right for the uni, and I had to ask him to stop that, because my brain was already wired to adapt it on the fly.

So, my point is: don't be afraid to learn on a uni. You don't need special learning material; the standard E9 books and lessons will work just fine for you.

John

This thread makes my point. The people that have learned are clueless as to why the people who don't make it, don't. Someone who read the previous almost 30 post would really question the path they are on learning the PSG. So I guess the attitude of either you get it or you don't prevails here, and if you don't tough luck.
I have heard it mentioned before about a newbie section for the forum where the pontifications on the merit of how many pulls and pedals you have is kept to a minimum, I think this would be beneficial.
My interest in this is not for myself, it is for new people that want to learn the steel guitar. There is a reason I can't count all the guitar players I know, but I can count all the steel guitar players I have met on one hand. This thread was written by the people that have reached some level of proficiency on the steel guitar, not the countless who never make it. The future for the instrument lies in new players, not in the "Gone Home" and "Need Prayers" sections of the forum. Wake up people.

What I did not like about S10 as a beginner was the difficult grips to navigate around string 9 and string 7 to get to string 8 and viceversa.

Further, that darn D wasn't in the open string major scale and was thus was non intuitive and a mind twister early on. Having a D string made far more sense to me after I played a u 12 and started using the E--D pedal and started thinking outside the open string tuning - at which point the D made sense in reflection.

My playing took an immediate boost of less accidental notes due to less grip clutter the day I didn't have to put up with that D on the u12. For that reason, I'd say a universal is actually easier to play and learn on.

Here are some other random thoughts on how steel can be learned quicker;

1) Steel guitar should be approached with home base being with A+B in the down position.

2) Tab can be too heavily relied on. It teaches execution strategies well, but making tab the foundation of learning is like trying to become an artist using paint by number kits. Longer term, requires the hard work: fretboard knowledge, chord construction and naming, and the scale tones. I found it more educational to play with piano score with the accompanyment chord indicator. Still not as valuable as ear training!

Niels,
A lot of us posted on what we experienced when we WERE beginners , and what we realized ..... I recently bought an SD-10 to see if there was anything about it that I should have seen when I was a beginner , now that I know how to play , and understand the grips , and the position's ....... It doesn't hurt either that it's a great vintage Shobud either ..... I'm still working on the E9th neck just to give it a fair shot .....I'm not having much luck with it ....I feel like i'm almost in the same boat I was when I was startiing out ..... I'm sure that there are those out there that think that the 10 string E9th neck is an easier neck to play and understand .....I think that you will find that folks will have differences in their answers because we are all different ....Many older players will find the 10 string E9th neck easier to play , because that is what they learned on as the Universal steel and tuning came later in time .... Those who started on the E9th neck graduated to the C6th neck because the guy who was teaching them more than likely played a D10 pedal steel.... I'm self taught , so I was not swayed by anyone who taught me ....I have my preference from my own experiences .... The easier steel to play is up to the individual ..... There's really no right or wrong .....Jim

I began my study of pedal steel last July; I have a Williams 700 series U12. I agree that it is no problem to translate E9 TAB to the U12. And I agree that TAB has limited usefulness if you really want to understand the instrument. As for the B6 side, I am cheerfully ignoring it until I gain some proficiency on the E9. In the meantime, I have some very cool bass strings to add to the E9 stuff, and I know that when I want to, there is another harmonically interesting world I can tap into when I want to expand beyond the E9. I respect everyone's opinion, but my experience has been that the U12 is understandable to the beginner. By the way, the Newman course on the Universal is worth every penny, as are the other Newman courses. Best wishes to all of you.

Niels Andrews wrote:This thread makes my point. The people that have learned are clueless as to why the people who don't make it, don't. Someone who read the previous almost 30 post would really question the path they are on learning the PSG. So I guess the attitude of either you get it or you don't prevails here, and if you don't tough luck.

Niels, I don't think it's quite "If you don't get it, tough luck." It's more like it takes a certain mental approach(I suspect there's more than one successful approach) to look at playing these things and you can't teach mindset. At least not easily.
I think one can successfully start on a uni, or any other tuning one can find instruction for. Neither the string count or setup really hamper anything, other than the fact that E9 is easier to find material to learn from.

The psg is a very deep instrument...the frustration when the 'walls' are hit can be equally as deep. This is true no matter the neck being played.

The list of technical skills to master is enough for a few years of training, pedalling, picking sliding, blocking, intonation, vibrato. And when you're done learning those to an acceptable level of competancy, you look in the mirror and admit that you've just passed kindergarden.

The thing that keeps a person going is that we know its the sweetest sounding instrument ever conceived.