The Steel Guitar Forum

Here is the first 2 choruses and 1/2 of the bridge.

I may have to move this discussion to my blog, as it is becoming pic intensive. Also, I want to post some video and I wish the forum would have embedding enabled.

Great, Mike. Here is an alternative to compare. The chord at bar 35 is interesting. You can test this down a fourth with an E tuning with the top string down to D. Unfortunately you can't compare it with the record without a detuner.

Guy, you have to have that open string B. It's pretty prominent in a lot of spots.

Ok. Let me check. I gotta have some lunch. Good thing I'm on holidays. You have to admit it lays out nicely, though. The chord at 35 is accounted for as is the fudge in the minor second at bar 37.

I will be sad if I have to bury this transcript!

Before going into more forensic investigation, I would make the observation of factors mitigating against both of these tunings.

The one that I propose is questionable because of the string tensions and whether or not it is likely that alternative strings were fitted.

The capo theory is also questionable. When were capos commonly in use? Do any forumites have an answer? Yes, it would always be possible to argue that it could have been as a result of one individual's (Bennie's)ingenuity. But why would he do it? There are no other instruments that are needed to be accommodated by retuning. My personal feeling about capos is that I use one if necessary but my preference is to avoid them. IMO the sound of the guitar is degraded to some extent if the full string length isn't being used. There doesn't seem to be any reason for the soloist and band leader to place a restriction on his sound at a recording session.

Anyway, pressing on.....

OK, Mike. Conceded in the second bar. I will take my chart out back and bury it. It was fun, though.

I hear strong D# in the chord at bar 35, a forward slant perhaps.

Being very interested in transcribing old recordings, I slowed this one down to 1/3 without pitch change. I certainly heard a lot of sustain on some of those zero third strings which sounds a lot like an open string. I don't think it is so unlikely that BN would have used a capo. Its not rocket science and Bennie was the kind of musician who would have tried anything. This is a top thread. Thanks Guy and Mike.

Guy Cundell wrote:Before going into more forensic investigation, I would make the observation of factors mitigating against both of these tunings.

The one that I propose is questionable because of the string tensions and whether or not it is likely that alternative strings were fitted.

The capo theory is also questionable. When were capos commonly in use? Do any forumites have an answer? Yes, it would always be possible to argue that it could have been as a result of one individual's (Bennie's)ingenuity. But why would he do it? There are no other instruments that are needed to be accommodated by retuning. My personal feeling about capos is that I use one if necessary but my preference is to avoid them. IMO the sound of the guitar is degraded to some extent if the full string length isn't being used. There doesn't seem to be any reason for the soloist and band leader to place a restriction on his sound at a recording session.

Anyway, pressing on.....

Capos have been commercially available since the early to mid-1800s. In fact, in 1900, Sears introduced a guitar with a built-in adjustable capo. Many of the blues artists of the 1920s used capos (sometimes just a pencil or some other object) and Bennie definitely spent time with some of these musicians, playing hokum, etc. You have to admit, the higher key adds a nice bit of extra energy to the tune.

I still believe they are playing in the key of F, which would mean a capo at the 3rd fret, but the pitch of the recording is E. They may have been tuned a 1/2 step lower for whatever reason--after all it's just a string band. The guitarist is clearly (to my ears) playing F and C chord shapes at the first and open (C chord) position, though.

At the end of the second chorus, there is quite a confusion in the chords. Someone is playing a diminished chord while the guitarist plays a G7.

Don't bury your transcript--if it is more comfy for you to play it that way, then go for it. This is the first time I've really tried to do the forensics on this tune--usually I tried just to find a convenient way to play it.

Very nice work everyone.

Hi Mike
I spent a lot of time trying to work this out a few years ago and came to pretty much the same conclusion of the positions Bennie played as you did. I hadn't considered the use of a capo though. Where I differed was that I play the 2nd and 3rd notes on the first string - feels more natural to me.
Also I can hear a B decending chromatically to a G (4th String) in bars 15 and 16.
It'll be interesting to see what you come up with for the lower notes later on in the tune. I could only see that it could be played on a 7 string guitar at the time. I'll have to go back and look over it and probably end up kicking myself.
I'm pretty sure Bennie used a C tuning quite a bit. Girl from the South Sea Isles for example.

Bill, thanks for posting. I actually never thought about playing the 2nd and 3rd notes on the 1st string, but I think you're right. I slowed down those 2 notes plus the note that follows to 1/4 speed and can hear that the 3rd note descends slightly before he hits the note on the next string a fret lower. The timbre is the same as the 1st note, too. I will reflect this in my final transcription.

I believe he used a C tuning, too, but I'm ignorant about the strings of the time and what was available, how much tension they could take, etc. If he is not using a capo, that would put a mighty strain on that round neck. I guess there is no way of really knowing, but in the few pics I've seen of him, there is no capo. However, a capo is a good modern day answer for those who want to play his style and still keep their guitar in A tuning.

If I may be forgiven for broadening the discussion to that of Bennie's different tunings, I would like to ask what C tuning Bennie would have used? If it was from the top ECGECG, I don't think it would have worked for his break in My Girl From The South Sea Isles. Even GECGEC, if such a tuning was used would not fit, at least to my ear.

This was the first Hawaiian guitar piece I ever transcribed. I used G tuning assuming Bennie used A. In the first bar of C chord, I assume the first three notes come up on a straight bar C. The fourth note drops back to an Eb that slides up into a double stop on the top two strings. In a C tuning you would not have anywhere to drop back. The entire round lays out painlessly in A or G tuning.

GEORGE DE FRETES PLAYED THIS BLINDFOLDED.
BOTH GEORGE AND RUDY WAIRATA HAVE A NICE NICE RECORDING OF THIS SONG.

Hi David,
I think it's a good idea to look at all of Bennie's tunes for clues to the tunings he was using.

I'll have to go back and check "My Girl From the South Sea isles" but don't you think those first 3 notes of the solo -C E G - are played on open strings? The next note is G to my ears -3rd fret 2nd string followed by the first string 2nd fret.
I also used to play this in G tuning pretty much as you've described as it was easier than retuning or taking out another guitar. I wrote out the uke part as well for the uke player but he ignored it and made up his own part.

Broadaning this out further (sorry), I've recently been working on Hawaiian Capers ( which is why this thread caught my interest) I'd assumed he played it in F tuning but now I'm thinking that might be in C tuning listening to some of the open strings later in the piece. Also how's he getting those strange distant sounding notes at the end? It's becoming a bit of a headache - maybe he is using 2 guitars or more than 6 strings, a moveable capo? He was well known for using lots of tricks in his act but I've not heard it described exactly what they were apart from playing the uke with his feet.

Bill Leach wrote: "My Girl From the South Sea isles" but don't you think those first 3 notes of the solo -C E G - are played on open strings? The next note is G to my ears -3rd fret 2nd string

Hi Bill, my logic was that Bennie would not have retuned out of A if he did not need to, and the question of whether we are hearing open strings is the clincher. What I know for sure is that I can make my tricone ring just as well at the 5th fret in G. But also, I am definitely hearing him drop back from that G note (3rd note played over C chord.) But then my ears have got it wrong before. However, I didn't find anything later in the break that would have required a retune.
I wonder if anyone will be discussing us in such detail in 80 something years!

Will there ever be a definitive answer as to whether Bennie tuned to open C used a capo? No one knows for sure.

I don't what the strings choices were back in the 1920s, but every old pack of strings I've seen had a fairly thick first string. Considering the extra tension steel strings put on the bridge, neck and tuning keys, to tune an E string up G could cause some serious damage, even to a National Triolian. Now, to be fair, in the pics I've seen of the National, if indeed it is the one he played, there was nothing resembling a capo on it. I suppose he could have used a tenor guitar string for the 1st string.

So, what would be the reasons for him using a capo, since it seems that just about every recording I've listened to this morning utilizes this high tuning? It does sound like some of his open strings do not quite ring out the way they would if the path was purely nut to saddle, but he used a nut raiser, so that could be one reason. Another reason is that single cone Nationals don't have a lot of ring. Would using a capo make it easier for him to play in the center of the neck, where it might be slightly easier to pull off his fast moves? Again, who knows?

So, most of us would not want to tune our instruments up that high because a) we'd be limited to playing in that tuning, and b) the thin strings required to get that tuning would lack tone. A capo seems like a good answer for the modern player. It could be as simple as sliding something of the right thickness under the strings, such as a steel rod.

Just food for thought....

I suppose he could have used banjo strings to take the higher tension.

I use a metal bodied triolian with a nut raiser and I've just tried putting one of those old flat bars under the strings. It fits perfectly between the frets and works well as a capo. In fact it fits so well it's almost as if it had been designed for this purpose.Even if Bennie didn't do this it's given me something more to play with.

The only picture I've seen of Bennie with a Triolian is that on with the International Cowboys. Have you seen other photos Mike? It looks very beaten up, so I don't think Bennie would have been too bothered about damaging it with the extra string tensions.

This is the only picture of his Triolian I've seen (the banjo player is holding it). Note Roy Rogers directly behind Bennie.

Somehow I managed to miss this thread when I posted last July!!

One for Mike I suppose.....did you complete the transcription...I'd love to see it?!!

I love reading old threads on here (I'm particularly amused by the almost rancorous threads from the early 2000s in the archives...good old basilh could really get a lively debate going).

I too wonder about the C6 tuning origins. I know from Jerry's book and otherwise of his claims of its origins and I don't dispute that, I just wonder if it is a case of convergent evolution...only because 6th tunings became such a critical part of the Hawaiian sound in the 40s and 50s, was Jerry's reach from the mainland that profound at the time? (of course, in the 70s, when he moved there and started a bit of a Hawaiian steel revival, he definitely left his mark!). I could be wrong and maybe they took cues from him....but I kind of saw the JB style as having a later influence on Hawaiian steelers rather than back in the 40s and 50s, so maybe sixth tunings sprung up independently in Honolulu and Lima, OH? They was certainly a lot of experimentation going on. Some players, I've heard, would keep tunings as trade secrets, detuning their instruments when going off stage so no one could steal their tricks!

Like the story of the first electric guitar, the origin of different tunings is shrouded in fog and will likely never be conclusively proven. It's highly unlikely, for one example, that Joaquin Murphey developed his 6th tuning after hearing Jerry Byrd. Innovations definitely cross-pollinate and some discoveries aren't widely publicized or distributed beyond small groups. We steelers are typically rather myopic.

Thanks Sebastian for the heads up on the King Benny Nawahi interviews!
True gold!