About those fun-filled steel jams...............

[Asa Brosius]

Think of it as good musician training Ray. I agree it takes some getting used to- where else in a musical situation do we find ourselves playing/gigging with even one other steeler, let alone many? The more fretless instruments, the more an instrumental sounds like a chorus pedal cranked to 10. We're usually 'THE guy/gal' I've also had a hard time straight steel playing with pedalers too, accustomed as I am to changers.
Here are two general ways to look at this issue- 1. it's everyone else's problem (minus Byrd, Emmons, and the small handful of those who shalt never do wrong). conclusion? maybe time to leave.
2. It's your problem. Can you work through it? Is it worth it for you to develop some 'give' with other musicians? I know I wouldn't be working if I focused on the critical side.

[Chris Gabriel]

Hearing all of the other folks pedal changes in a given song, my mind seems to jump into that thinking/hearing process and when it comes my turn to play non-pedal......my mind simply goes blank.

...this is a legitimate concern andI agree with Tony's solution, to bring the Emmons. I'll help you load it.

[Gene Jones]

My very first learning experience at age 15 was playing with a bunch of Bob Wills style fiddle players during neighborhood jams. I suffered tremendously from the "you sound like a cat with it's tail caught under a rocking chair", but I learned a lot from those early days.

Those guys were adamant on meter, harmony, and being a team player. They weren't professionals, but to this day they have my respect, admiration, and gratitude for their influence on my early musical education.

I didn't participate in "jams" again for many years, but, I believe that the current jams have many positive influences on steel players. We all learn from our mistakes, and that is what a mutually respectful attitude about each others playing is all about.

[Ben Jones]

Ray, play the melody and borrow an amp so we can HEAR you.

I always look forward to hearing you when its your turn..I expect from you to hear the melody, masterfully stated..something I truly suck at, I expect bto hear something I dont normally hear from the other 30 pedal players ...but I never get to hear ANYTHING from you even tho im sitting only four players down. You are playig thru a low watt tweed while the band and all the other players are playing thru twins and 300 watt ss amps.

better to be heard and suck on occasion, than to play masterfully and never be heard?

[Chris Gabriel]

I too have a low wattage amp! I'm hoping to bring something..better. Ray, I didn't mean to put PRESSURE on you to bring your pedal steel, 'twas not my intention, just to clarify. I would love to hear you, no matter what guitar you bring.

It would be like the olympics, you know, pass the torch...

[Jack Bowman]

Ray, play the melody and borrow an amp so we can HEAR you.

I always look forward to hearing you when its your turn..I expect from you to hear the melody, masterfully stated..something I truly suck at, I expect bto hear something I dont normally hear from the other 30 pedal players ...but I never get to hear ANYTHING from you even tho im sitting only four players down. You are playig thru a low watt tweed while the band and all the other players are playing thru twins and 300 watt ss amps.

better to be heard and suck on occasion, than to play masterfully and never be heard?

It has always been my contention, maybe it's wrong , but it does not take a lot of watts and big amps to make good music. It takes much practice and an environment where one does not fight the other musicians for turf or fight the crowd noise in order to hear the band. If one , ( or the whole dang bunch) will turn it down a little it makes for a better delivery and a more pleasing musical experience. A big bunch of volume will not showcase a talented person, rather it will showcase their lack of good judgement. I attended a dance once and was invited to sit in. The steeler put me in front of the big amp of his and then kept telling me to turn mine up. "A bad time was had by all " !

[Ben Jones]

doesnt matter how good the music you make is if no one can hear it. louder aint automatically better, but inaudible =automatically worse.

we're in a room with a full band and 30 steel guitars, 30 twins or equivalents, a full live band or BIAB Blasted over 1000 watt PA.

a tweed champ or pro or whatever is a great amp, one of my favorites...but unless you mic that, your not gonna be heard in that room.

at these jams , some of my favorite moments come from pedal players playing no pedals ...Tyack and Dave Harmonson, they can both destroy without pedals..but they play thru amps appropriate to the setting. I can hear them.

Chris I could barely hear you last time either.
I WANT to hear you both. those littel amps have great tone I know...but for performance situations where the amp cannot be mic'ed you guys might need something more. no offense to anyone. I think Ray would enjoy the jams more and would get alot of compliments/feedback on his playing if people could hear him?

when he starts playing I nwanna run over and cram my ear into the speaker

[Mike Schwartzman]

Ben Wrote:

we're in a room with a full band and 30 steel guitars, 30 twins or equivalents, a full live band or BIAB Blasted over 1000 watt PA.

Wow!...I've never known anything like that happening in this neck of the woods. That's a lot of steel players and a lot of watts!

Of course there are "open jams" and "open blues jams" around here, rarely with any PSG players at all. I used to play bass in one of the house bands at an open blues jam and from week to week and after a while I just sort of applied the Forrest Gump saying: "Open jams are like a box of chocolates...you never know what you'll get".

The jam band leader was pretty supportive of less experienced players, and conducted the groupings of players accordingly every few songs. Sure there were clams and clunkers, but I'll tell ya...it's a great feeling when the new person's face lit up when he or she realized that they could play in a live ensemble at their skill level when the people around them were rooting for them to do well.

[Jack Bowman]

doesnt matter how good the music you make is if no one can hear it. louder aint automatically better, but inaudible =automatically worse.

we're in a room with a full band and 30 steel guitars, 30 twins or equivalents, a full live band or BIAB Blasted over 1000 watt PA.

a tweed champ or pro or whatever is a great amp, one of my favorites...but unless you mic that, your not gonna be heard in that room.

at these jams , some of my favorite moments come from pedal players playing no pedals ...Tyack and Dave Harmonson, they can both destroy without pedals..but they play thru amps appropriate to the setting. I can hear them.

Chris I could barely hear you last time either.
I WANT to hear you both. those littel amps have great tone I know...but for performance situations where the amp cannot be mic'ed you guys might need something more. no offense to anyone. I think Ray would enjoy the jams more and would get alot of compliments/feedback on his playing if people could hear him?

when he starts playing I nwanna run over and cram my ear into the speaker

Yep, louder aint better! The little ole outlet on the back of the amps , labled "line out" when piped into a sound mixer and then broadcast to the participants , at a level of sound less than 82 decibles will be the best all around improvement to any performance environment. All amplifiers should be set close enough to the owner so that he can hear himself, then all of the other amplifiers should be piped into the soundman's mixer too. After a sound check on each amp and you are satisfied that you can hear your own amp well enough to play your guitar....hand the job to the sound man......Doing it in this manner will result in good music. If 2, 10 or 30 guys are in a jam, it makes no difference how many....you will have that many different opinions on what constitutes good sound. It behooves all to select a sound man and put your stuff thru his board....then leave yur fangers offen you amp. I learned this during live telecasts many years ago and during recording sessions. Both entities just want your talent and not your opinions as to what makes a good level of sound reproduction. ( If I had not have offered this input, you would be looking for sumpin else to read. ) P.S. Those among us that like to hear loud music should warm up inside of a concrete silo on some ole farmer's place and get it over with before you show up for a gig.

[Ben Jones]

Jack, respetfully, its a jam..theres no soundcheck, people walk in right in the middle of it and set up their gear and start playing, people leave in the middle of it etc.

You should be loud enough to be heard above the band by the guy 4 guitars down from you in that situation..but hey, thats just my opinion and I suck and play out of tune so what do I know?


im not the first to mention this volume issue regarding Ray btw.

Mike, yeah at least 30 psgs all in one room no exaggeration. One time we all played Together agian at the same time. can you imagine? Ive never heard a more horrifying sound.

[Duncan Hodge]

I dunno. I "jam" with people a lot. Sometimes I play the guitar, sometimes the mandolin and sometimes (gasp) the pedal steel.
I enjoy my time playing with new people. It is a joy to keep on playing until we find the common tune within the song. The only time I don't like a jam is when one self appointed person declares him/her self the "Captain" and dictates who will play what and when.
Duncan

[jolynyk]

"all of the other amplifiers should be piped into the soundman's mixer too. After a sound check on each amp and you are satisfied that you can hear your own amp well enough to play your guitar....hand the job to the sound man......Doing it in this manner will result in good music. If 2, 10 or 30 guys are in a jam, it makes no difference how many....you will have that many different opinions on what constitutes good sound. It behooves all to select a sound man and put your stuff thru his board....then leave yur fangers offen you amp."

30 amps into a soundboard?? how big is this soundboard including, all other instruments?? Sound check ?? Soundman?? are you sure you're talking about a jam?? I've been to many jams. Have never seen a soundman..

[Bob Muller]

Against all of my better judgment I am going to take one last crack at trying to explain this issue. First of all it is true that Ray has been personally, and collectively invited to attend all of these local Jams. And no one including myself wants him to stop attending. Ray is one of the senior members of the Portland steel guitar community, and is a treasure of information, skills, and abilities, no one is denying this. There are several other players in the group even older than Ray who still seem to be coping fine. Everyone enjoys hearing Ray play, even though sometimes there are mistakes and issues, that is not the point. No matter what he has ever played, even if it's the wrong song at the wrong time, no one really cares we all cheer him on with smiles and approval just as when any other member of the group plays. There are all different skill levels, young and old, seasoned professional to absolute beginner playing at these Jams. These are not professionally produced events, please try to understand that. No one gets paid for all the trouble and work, planning, etc. that goes into producing one of these Jams, I can assure you it is a lot of volunteer effort required. Everyone brings their own equipment, guitars, amps, etc.. Now there's a wide variation of equipment and standards here to be sure. None of this really matters because the whole point of the jam is a chance for everyone in the Portland area to get together, play some music, visit, tell stories, swap equipment, and whatever else may happen. Understand there is no soundman, there is no common sound system, there are no standards for volume, tone, etc. everyone is expected to contribute to the Jam in their own way at the best of their ability. And yes not everything works perfectly every time. There are equipment failures, playing issues, tuning issues, and what ever, but at the end of the day everyone generally has a good time and enjoyed themselves. And no we probably did not produce a Nashville quality record at the end of the day, so what!!

I feel that here is the basic issue: None of this should have been submitted as posts on the form in the first place, and Ray has submitted several posts in a negative context suggesting that somehow it is everyone else's problem that he is having trouble playing in this environment. I feel that any seasoned professional player should be able to overcome any of these obstacles and prevail and still sound good to everyone else. Is not fair to judge others by professional standards at a Jam such as this. This is purely a group of musical friends getting together to have a good time, all having a chance to play a tune or so with an actual band so everyone can enjoy it. No one should come back after the fact and address the Forum with all of the things that may not have gone perfectly, as if it is some sort of an excuse for not being able to play well. This is just unacceptable!!

So in conclusion if you have a problem at the Jam please ask someone at that time if there's any way they can assist you in resolving the issue so that you can feel more comfortable. Like I said everyone will enjoy hearing you play, visiting with you, assisting you with your equipment or any other issues that you may have. I'm quite sure no one would object to doing this, I know I have personally helped you in and out several times, connected your equipment and so on. I'm sure several other people would joyfully do the same. Again you are one of the senior members of our musical family, and extremely skilled player, and yes everyone wants to hear you play again as long as you can. Please try to make any future posts about positive subjects, and not problems at the Jams.

Thanks
Bob

[Jack Bowman]

Jack, respetfully, its a jam..theres no soundcheck, people walk in right in the middle of it and set up their gear and start playing, people leave in the middle of it etc.

You should be loud enough to be heard above the band by the guy 4 guitars down from you in that situation..but hey, thats just my opinion and I suck and play out of tune so what do I know?


im not the first to mention this volume issue regarding Ray btw.

Mike, yeah at least 30 psgs all in one room no exaggeration. One time we all played Together agian at the same time. can you imagine? Ive never heard a more horrifying sound.

LMAO...It sounds like a chinese fire drill, I'll bet. Glad that time and distance keeps me away from all of the fun!

[Ken Pippus]

Jack, a good time is generally had by nearly everyone, and yes, maybe it's best that you're far too busy to come. Maybe you could arrange a coffee date with Ray.

[Jack Bowman]

Jack, a good time is generally had by nearly everyone, and yes, maybe it's best that you're far too busy to come. Maybe you could arrange a coffee date with Ray.

Trying to cut others down does not make you any taller.

Brother, every time one points at another and says "it's his fault" the index finger points to ole Ray but the other three point right back at the acuser. I dont know Ray and realy dont know anyone in your jam group. In passing, while scanning thru the subject posts, I came across this one and just read the tyrade launched at an old man and wondered what it was all about.

Cut the old boy some slack, is all I'm saying. I suggested ways to make the musical din of noise a little bit quieter so the Old guy could be heard.

We will all be old guys soon and need some understanding. At 80+ years I already need some help at times. Bowing out now and wishing all some happy Jamming. My hearing aids await some GOOD music.

" Do unto others....etc."

[Ray Montee]

I'm going to make one last attempt to set the record straight however I'm doubtful that those of you that chose to clamor to be one of the first, to jump in to flame Ray Montee......will likely be incapable of comprehending simple statements of fact. I'm not interested in a debate, nor am I attempting in any way to save my soul on this forum. I desire not, to waste b0b's excellent SGF for a personal conflict.

This thread began as a simple explanation of a dilemma that I, and perhaps me alone, has experienced at a few jams that I've attended down thro' the years. I wish to assure each of you, that YOUR JAM, is not the only one in this northwest region. AMAZING.......isn't it?

I assure you that I've participated in many more steel jams aside from those in your own backyard. Never before have I ever encountered anything like the nasty crap you guys have orchestrated against me, but that's okay. Those I had once believed were my real friends have shown themselves for what they really are. When a person attempts to degrade and humiliate another, they should at least take the time to make their accusations accurate and based on fact and not personal misguided rage.

For those of you that have never played a non-pedal steel guitar, it's likely you're incapable of realizing the issue about which I was attempting to elude. I'm talking to those people that have played non-pedal steel for more than a few weeks of simply plucking the strings.

I said absolutely NOTHING, negatively, about any individual (living or dead) or group in my remarks. One need only to peruse earlier pages of this SGF to see the praise that I've flourished upon Mr. Muller for his kindness and generosity for sharing his excellent facilities with the rest of us. I've even acknowledged the time and effort the CAPTAIN has devoted to making each of these events pleasant and productive. Doesn't sound too negative to me?

When I referred to "the pedal changes of others" and how those pedal changing sounds became a 'set' in my mind; thus, when I started to play my non-pedal lap steel, those pedal changes continued to ring in my ear and to my shock and dismay, I'd discover I was on a wrong fret, in a wrong tuning and picking the wrong combination of strings.........since my own mind had directed me to the pedal arrangement for the songs rather than the non-pedal format.

I said absolutely NOTHING about ANY ONE's playing.

My reference to someone playing 'out of tune' rather than being any one of you thin skinned insecure individuals, actually related to a group I played with up in Washington State for more than a year. I didn't mention their name or location as I did not want to embarrass any of them. I was merely attempting to make a point and had no desire to defame any individual (living or dead). The lead guitar player, beside playing full treble and so loud one could barely hear the bass player, never corrected his overbearing playing during the eighteen months I shared the stage with him.

I ended my opening post with a sincere desire to learn if any of you other musicians had encountered a similar situation such as I.

Contrary to Mr. Mullers' most recent post, it's quite clear that he pays little or no attention to the posts ahead of his own. I indeed, have been invited "NOT TO COME" to your future events as I, an army of one, is openly destroying each and everything that you folks have worked so hard to put together.

The end.

[Bob Muller]

[quote="Ray Montee"] I hereby submit the following for everyone's perusal and evaluation:

When I got there, the accompanists were all set-up and in tune with each other.......complete with smiley faces.

There were a bunch of steel guitar players assembled in the room; some with single and/or double neck pedal steels; some with six or eight string lap steels, each with a different level of musical playing background.......student, to amateur, self-taught and working professional.

Now, the one guy was over there while the other two guys were over there in that area and the remaining several players were right about here. Some were facing easterly, others westerly and the remainder generally northerly.

Now that guy was on a hard dining room like chair, while those two over yonder there were on a really inflated looking leather daveno and the remaining bunch were on pack-a-seat right there and there.

Now to my knowledge, not a single one in the room attempted to tune accurately with the band or anyone else in the room. The din was unbearable and for one that plays by 'ear' rather than sheet music, I found it to be so bad that I couldn't play my own guitar, even when the stopped playing.

You get what I'm saying, right?
Just wanted to answer your question as best I could.


OK Ray you are absolutely correct, clearly this does not in any way refer to anything that may have happened that one of my jams, and there are other classic quotes that could easily be inserted here about the Portland jam. Obviously you are correct you have my sincere apology for misunderstanding everything in your post.

Thanks
Bob