The Steel Guitar Forum

Ken: I always tune the Es with A & B pedals up, and I use the SE9 setting. I just tried tuning your method, OE9 with pedal down. I then released the pedals and the Es went significantly sharp. I have no idea how to quantify the amount. My old Emmons does have a significant amount of cabinet drop. Without touching the Es I then reset the tuner to SE9 and checked the Es. They were flat, which was no surprise.

It seems your method of tuning effectively splits the difference between OE9 and SE9 (pedals up) as your Es must be sharp when pedals are up, but not as much as my method.

Final test is to listen to recordings of playing with a band (that is reasonably in tune). If you sound in tune, you are. If not, you're not.

I am quite sure that we have ALL played out of tune a time or so. Instead of complaining about it, why not offer some words of encouragement and try helping them see what they are doing wrong?? Most players would gladly take advise as how to play better or sound better if approached in the RIGHT way. Simply coming here to the forum and making posts serves to help no one unless you have some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. How does the old saying go.. "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem". Just my .02 worth.

To many steels, all playing at the same time, can't be anything but a mess. Even if all of them are in tune. The latest example of this was The Tonight Show, when Robert Randolph and The Slide Bros. performed. All fantastic steel players, but everyone playing lead at the same time, was just a jumble of notes. I enjoyed getting to see them play, but it could've been much better, had they taken separate solos. Less is always more.

I am sorry, but I don't feel the people here are complaining. You can only help those who want to be helped. It is a common problem that we are sharing. I welcome criticism from other players, some don't.

The problem with trying to give "constructive criticism" regarding tuning is that there are multiple schools of thought on how to tune. I know what works for me, but I've given up trying to convince others that I am right and that everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong. I have become convinced that people who don't tune like me can still play in tune. I've heard examples that prove the point.

One can't talk about how to tune without starting a verbal war, and coming across as being dogmatic. So the only thing left to comment on is to emphasize listening intently for intonation at all times, and make the necessary corrections with the bar.

That's exactly what I previously said. Pay alot more attention to intonation!!! That is "constructive criticism."

PS: In my opinion intonation is one of the primary differences between a pro and a well meaning amateur. The pro is always in tune. The amateur is almost in tune, but not quite.

When my team is out of tune, I want to hide. In our case its the lead guitar throwing everyone out, Its those dang clip on meters for $12 bucks, Everyone else has good tuners, You get what you pay for including people getting up and walkin out, Why cant this guy hear it, I ask myself, When everyone else can, It drives me nuts. Even when you tell that person hes out of tune, he agrees , but his tuner says hes on, Duhhh

As far as Rays topic goes too many steels all playing improvisational leads at the same time sounds bad.
Jams and open mics have these inherent problems.
Tuning is a separate issue.
I just got the new Peterson tuner and have owned several Petersons before. I was trying to learn how to make my own tuning to save on the Plus HD.
Having struggled with the SE9 tuning in the open notes it was my conclusion that SE9 was designed for tuning open Es with pedals up and the 0E9 was designed for tuning Es with the pedals down. Both are splitting the difference as far as I can tell.
It is very easy to figure out offsets with a Peterson tuner. Finally I decided to test against an acoustic guitar tuned standard 440... Chords E and A.
To me the basis of tuning is to start with a reference note... E or A and go from there.
I think the majority of people use the SE9 but I like my Es tuned close to 440 with pedals down.
Has anyone besides myself sat and strummed a chord while plucking the open chords on a PSG?
Sorry about the highjack Ray

Back on topic..
I have funny story about the Austin and San Antonio Jams. Even though we state the rules of no noodling it always happens.
So my friend Dave will get a jam going and at the end he says NOW Everybody Play!
Everyone happily rips into it and it sounds like a cuckoo clock factory at noon.
Occasionally I have heard it approach dixieland but it was a twisted Dixieland at best.
Funny stuff but yes it can grate on your nerves.

Yes, tuning is impotant.

There are 3 things necessary to become a good steeler. You must be able to tune, you must be able to play in tune, and you must learn the ins and outs of actually playing the steel (developing the necessary technical and musical skill-sets).

You need all 3 to be a good steeler.

Not to be sarcastic, but to me, asking if tuning is important is like asking "Do you need to know basic Algebra to be a mathematics professor?"

Of course being in tune is necessary. However, depending on a tuner to insure that a steel guitar is in tune is like depending on an "E" note for everyone to tune with.

Anyone who has ever tuned to a vocalist's "E" has learned that the rest of his (or hers) strings will be sharp.

However, western swing musicians being hesitant to tune to a one note of a house piano had learned that much can go wrong before the other strings are tuned. Most of those musicians required that, rather than a note, that a chord be played to tune with.

If there was not a dischord, then everything was "go".

Yes, TUNING IS IMPORTANT!!! Especially with your guitar--open tuning, pedals and knee levers. Let me give a great example of a nightmarish situation I was dragged into.

Some years back, my band and I were invited to sit-in at a nearby club. I was told not to bring my guitar, as the steel player had graciously agreed to let me use his guitar. When I got there, I heard the house band play a few songs, but didn't hear the steel too much, to feel that there may have been something wrong, either with the steel guitar or the steel player's playing. Then, we were rushed up to the stage to start playing as soon as possible. I barely had enough time to introduce myself to the steel player and was told to guickly sit down and get ready to play. The steel player and I didn't have any time to talk, including anything about his steel guitar. Well, when my band kicked off, I could immediately hear the primary pedals on the E9(G#'s to A, B's to C#) were WAY OUT OF TUNE! The E9 open was fine, but the pedals weren't. I looked all around for the tuning wrench, between the necks, on the amp, on the floor--everywhere!!!--but, could not find it. I strained looking out in the crowd for the steel player, but he was no where to be found. Since the steel player and I had no time to discuss such things, I was trapped in a "psychological quagmire" of sorts. Needless to say, it was excruciating agony to get through that set. I remember very well thinking people were probably feeling that I was a terrible steel player.

Anyway, the point I want to make is, that steel player didn't know how to tune his own guitar up--in this case, the pedals are just as important as the open tuning. If you don't have the pedals and knee levers tuned properly, then how can you be in tune with your own band? I remember way back, when I first started out, somehow, someway, it was instilled in me to learn and make sure my guitar was in tune at all times.

Then, as has been mentioned, being in tune with the other instruments in the band, is yet another matter.

Absolutely! Theoretically, multiplayer music is a collaborative effort. Playing in tune rates up there with every one playing the correct chords/notes at the correct time - playing the same song together. In a group brawl however, we take our chances. There are those who simply do not know the difference or insist everyone else is out of tune. I agree, Mr. Montee, you were completely right in packing up. Been there myself. I played in a band where we gave a TEAM mate suggestion to a guitarist to retune, the reply was a grin and "It's close enough". I turned off my amp. unplugged and sat out in the audience. It's a shame what should have been a pleasant evening turned into free form noise.

Now, the one guy was over there while the other two guys were over there in that area and the remaining several players were right about here. Some were facing easterly, others westerly and the remainder generally northerly.

Now that guy was on a hard dining room like chair, while those two over yonder there were on a really inflated looking leather daveno and the remaining bunch were on pack-a-seat right there and there.

And that is just about exactly how I remember it, too, Ray, but I can't seem to recall if I was the guy sitting on pack-a-seat right there facing east who kept muffing the B pedal trying to raise 6 & 10 on Bob's Emmons, or if maybe I was on pact-a-seat over there (facing north) trying to figure out what song we were playing that I'd never heard before Prob'ly both before the night was over...

If my memory serves me correct, do we not tend to tune either a few pennies flat or a few pennies sharp? I know that many western swing steelers who tune up out of tune deliberately (especially C6th).

Other than the above, being out of time is my pet peeve.

Used to have problems in my old band. Everyone had their own tuner. One break, I compared them. They were all slightly different. From then on, the whole band used one tuner,,,, mine.

the more the merrier or
how too many cooks spoil the broth....lol
of course tuning is important
Tuning is the biggest can of worms here - Tuning is as varied as the members here
as Donny mentions, one must know how to tune
one also has to "hear " if he's in tune
back in the ol' days, tuning was'nt as "difficult" & intricate as it is today
tuning forks, pitch pipes, A note from the pianer, harmonics & plenty of cabinet drop
progress is supposed to make things easier but is'nt necessarily so
these slick fandangled tuners are very handy when playing live but
on the other hand, they are a crutch to those who rely on them solely for tuning : without listening, hearing or learning how to tune properly

some tune the roots ( E, B, A, F#, D ) to 440,441.5, 442
some take "cabinet drop" in account - ( which imo is a good thing compared to the Ol' days )
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=164485
i like & use harmonics for tuning when i'm at home or in a calm or silent environment - harmonics have helped me "hear" & learn how to tune properly
i then enter them into my presets so i can use the tuner in a live situation

whatever floats your steel & has you in tune is what matters
don't waste time gettin' bent out of shape tunin' or you'll be missin' out on the fun : pickin' & slidin' around

now when it comes to a bunch of steels playing together, it can often be atrocious
Russ Hicks & Jimmy Crawford proved that different ...

"Is tuning necessary". I don't think so. It cuts into my time at the beginning or the night for getting a drink. Same hold true for break time.

Hey Richard - You need to work on you multi-tasking! In fast paced environments! Now go get 'em pal!

I find when I tune up and get a beer at the same time, it's hard for me to reach all the way from the bar to the guitar. And seeing the tuner is out of the question.

I came up through the Jeffran College, - basically a place to learn to be a studio musician.

Jeff emphasized that a pedal steel plays 98% out of tune with 2% bringing the note to in-tune to create the pedal effect.

He also taught us how to tune the instrument so it would be compatible to a piano, hence the tempered tuning.

In studio work I learned that if I brought a glide in at exact pitch compared to the other tracks, the engineer would typically, say "That was a little Sharp--or--Flat" So After a few takes, I would bring it in tight to pitch and Simply Add Some Vibrato, and every time the engineer and producer would call in - That's Perfect.

On the Non Pedal side of this, The Most Recognized player - Jerry Byrd - could play straight to pitch, and vibrato from tight to a full on Hurricane. Typically making the song become a Hit Record with his various techniques.

Knowing when to play out of tune and when to play in tune is a major part of this art form.

Another one is: If you make a mistake - Make it again on purpose -

GeorgeBoards

Now, I don't want to be controversial........and I certainly don't want any of the more sensitive folks here on the Forum to mistakenly think that I'm disrespectfully talking about THEM..........

but......wouldn't REAL musicians, I mean like symphony orchestra players, laugh some of our guys under the table by the comments that are made here? I don't mean any contributor to this thread or anywhere else.

I mean, tuning up OUT of TUNE, so that you'll sound good with a piano; Using vibrato in order to correct for an OUT of TUNE guitar or an incorrectly adjusted pedal set-up and all that?

Until I met Jeff Newman, I'd never heard of such a thing and still don't hear much about tuning OUT of TUNE. His charts for tuning one's guitar OUT of TUNE was a first for me. Was it the electronic tuners that launched this new outlook about 'tuning an instrument'?

Is it possible that we could think/speak of tuning up properly and then making small incremental adjustments over time to where on a given guitar, or a given set of strings, everything would jibe just right? To where the player is satisfied with the music that is being produced?

We constantly on this SGF talk about TUNING out of TUNE.......... Isn't that sorta like justifying breaking one's leg so that his/her eyes would be more correctly adjusted for a correct view, parallel to the ground?

Ray, I had never heard of Jeff Newman's tuning, until I bought my Emmons LeGrande II, in 2005. I had always tuned with an E tuning fork, on every other steel I had ever owned. However, a friend turned me on to the Jeff Newman chart, where the E's are tuned 10cents sharp. I immediately noticed a difference in my pitch, with my pedals down. I haven't done many studio sessions, but I've done several in my home studio, and I'm always in tune. Years ago when I played on records, I was a real novice, and I thought I was in tune, until the record pressings came back. My steel was always a little flat, and the mix down engineer would pile on the reverb, trying to hide it. I guess he didn't want to hurt my feelings, or maybe he didn't hear very well. So now I tune the E's sharp, and everything else by ear. Works for me.

But.......

I can't help but wonder if Jeff's formula for tuning out of tune in order to have an in tune steel guitar holds true to all guitars.

If you tune Jeff's way, is one absolutely assured that his expensive guitar is going to be accurately in tune with the fellow right next to him that has a cheap guitar, a cheap set of strings, too much downward pressure on the bar, out of adjusted pedals and excessive cabinet drop or whatever?

In theory it sounds to me as tho' there is valid logic but............ What about real life? Playing four sets with a steel player that is out of tune is quite a challenge if not in fact, nearly impossible.