The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **10 Feb 2013 1:35 pm**

Ken Byng wrote:
Yes Mike - they are called Cobra Coil from Bobbe Seymour.

I think those are cobalt & brass (Co-bra).

Posted: **10 Feb 2013 3:10 pm**

I wonder about making fingers out of Bronze??????? Harder than Aluminum, and still considered a "musical" metal.

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 4:54 am**

Greg Cutshaw wrote:Replaceable changer top caps would solve a key wear point problem in many steel guitars. Especially wear at a point that creates buzzing and sustain issues.

Greg

Greg makes a very good point. ZB guitars had replaceable changer caps, and it worked well without affecting the tone in a negative way. Initially the caps were made from stainless steel, but Tom Brumley sent some polished aluminum caps over to try out, and I put them on my ZB D10. They were fine, and possibly the tone was improved a little. If only all PSGs had that facility.

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 9:41 am**

Look out, here comes cranky Dave

Supposedly the cryo strings have a somewhat smoother finish than non-cryo strings - the process smooths the finish

The key word here is 'supposedly' - I have seen no more scientific evidence for ANY difference in guitar strings than has been supplied for similar "cryogenically treated' audio cables, which can be purchased for approximatley 5 times the price of non-treated cables. I know several audiophiles who swear they can hear the difference - and have spent a boatload of money in the process - but so far nobody has been able to measure it or demonstrate any molecular effect, and scientific blind tests have not been published.

It reminds me of an 'audiophile' CD player marketed a few years back for over $3K that differed from the common $100 version in that it had a blue LED, a manual door to access the CD drive rather than a motorized tray, and a little piece of foam 'acoustic carpet' provided to set the player on; also the company sent an engineer out to help install it, making certain of course that little acoustic details like the orientation of the weave of the rug on the floor were all in order. Lots of puff and personal attention, but not much substance to the claims, in fact when measured, the expensive CD ploayer actually had worse performance the the cheapest standard player.

No metalurgist that I can find in person or on line has been able to propose a single credible effect on metals due to 'cryogenic treatment' that would have any bearing on the sound or durability of signal cables OR guitar strings treated thusly. Having debunked the 'cryogenic cable' myth, what is different about guitar strings that would suggest that this great new product is not also just the same as the old one with a great deal of marketing hype thrown in?

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 10:11 am**

What Rockwell do normal versus cryo strings read on the hardness tester? Let's get some facts about the properties of the finished stings.

Greg

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 11:40 am**

It reminds me of an 'audiophile' CD player marketed a few years back for over $3K that differed from the common $100 version in that it had a blue LED,

OOOOOHHH! Where can I get one? I MUST have one.

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 12:05 pm**

Mike,
My amp tech has a cd player that has been modded with a tube in it. I think there might even be a kit available. Best cd player I've ever heard!

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 1:18 pm**

Dave Grafe wrote:Look out, here comes cranky Dave

what is different about guitar strings that would suggest that this great new product is not also just the same as the old one with a great deal of marketing hype thrown in?
Well Dave,

I am so confident that the difference in tonal qualities are so superior than anything you have been exposed to in the past I have offered a money back guarantee.

You made reference to lack of data while doing your internet research.

You might also be surprised that Cryogenically tempered strings are not new as you state. They have been around for 20 years.

They just started getting popular in the last 5-6 years because people were reluctant to give them a try for the same reasons you site. (marketing hype)

Most electric guitar players, banjo players, flat top players and especially Bass guitar players realize now that hype is not part of the equation.

p.s. It might also surprise you that NASCAR Cryo treats most of their internal engine parts now.

No, it's not hype and some players do still buy there cords at radio shack.

Sid Hudson

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 1:24 pm**

My preferred strings for my Tele are the Markley Blue Steel set, 10-46. I like their tone better than others I've tried. And they last a long time whilst maintaining that tone, even with my brutal bending and hard finger-picking style.

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 3:18 pm**

In the world of magnetism , there is a huge difference between " configurations" of steel...

Austenite is a non-magnetic allotrope of carbon steel ... A face centered cubic configuration.

Martensite is a highly magnetic iron-carbon phase of steel ... A body centered tetragonal configuration (carbon atom trapped inside the lattice cubes) ...

Heat treating and rapid quenching of steel favors martensite formation ... That is why "old school" steel magnets require this kind of treatment ... To impart a higher remanence (Br) ... Basically, allowing the steel magnets to retain a higher "amount" of magnetism.

The ratio of martensite to austenite is a function of the lowest temperature achieved in the quenching process.

Austenite cannot exist in super low temperature environments ... Hence, cryogenic treatment of steel basically converts any remaining austenite after heat treating to martensite.

Martensite formation can also be stress induced ... Ie: why old hammers can hold a magnetic charge longer than a new one (assuming the same alloy).

Having strings on any electric guitar that have a higher ratio of martensite to austenite ... shall we say magnetically enhanced ... is certainly a " good thing" ...

Anyway ... I bought Sid's strings recently for my personal 6 string cast aluminum steel guitar ... With my own ultra Hi-Fi pickup ...

Sid's cryo strings are the real deal ... No hype ... Just good science.

Posted: **12 Feb 2013 4:35 pm**

Rick Aiello wrote:In the world of magnetism , there is a huge difference between " configurations" of steel...

Austenite is a non-magnetic allotrope of carbon steel ... A face centered cubic configuration.

Martensite is a highly magnetic iron-carbon phase of steel ... A body centered tetragonal configuration (carbon atom trapped inside the lattice cubes) ...

Heat treating and rapid quenching of steel favors martensite formation ... That is why "old school" steel magnets require this kind of treatment ... To impart a higher remanence (Br) ... Basically, allowing the steel magnets to retain a higher "amount" of magnetism.

The ratio of martensite to austenite is a function of the lowest temperature achieved in the quenching process.

Austenite cannot exist in super low temperature environments ... Hence, cryogenic treatment of steel basically converts any remaining austenite after heat treating to martensite.

Martensite formation can also be stress induced ... Ie: why old hammers can hold a magnetic charge longer than a new one (assuming the same alloy).

Having strings on any electric guitar that have a higher ratio of martensite to austenite ... shall we say magnetically enhanced ... is certainly a " good thing" ...

Yeah!!!

What Rick said!

Posted: **13 Feb 2013 5:48 am**

Georg,

Re: 22w

I don’t know the future of the Cryo strings or the 22w.

I guess I will have to wait and assess the demand for these strings at some point in the not too distant future.

Re: Can you mix the strings?

I wouldn’t. There is a definite tonal difference in the Non Cryo vs the Cryo.

Mixing the two for me would drive me crazy. Probably wouldn't bother Dave.

Posted: **13 Feb 2013 4:32 pm**

Austenite cannot exist in super low temperature environments ... Hence, cryogenic treatment of steel basically converts any remaining austenite after heat treating to martensite.

Cool, Rick, that's why I dig real science so much, 'cause there's always something more to learn!

Probably wouldn't bother Dave

Aww, did you have to go there, Sid? Seriously, I've no desire to trash you or your product, but there has been a lot of unsubstantiated noise for a long time and this post from Rick is the first credible explanation I have heard (and I've been inquiring since these products appeared) of how and why there should be any difference in the electrical or magnetic properties of 'cryogenically treated' metals. With such a techinical understanding in hand, I will happily start saving my sheckels so as to conduct my own decidedly subjective, non-scientific and self-serving test program, whether or not you are nice to me...

Posted: **13 Feb 2013 4:42 pm**

So now I'm curious, Rick, if you are familiar with this subject, can you speak to the qualities of copper and/or its alloys - specifically, are there similar structural variants for these metals as the Martensite and Austenite variants of steel that you mention, which would by nature of the process be logical contributors to improved performance of cryogenic conductors, which are not made of steel? They never taught us this stuff in 1960's chemistry classes...

Posted: **14 Feb 2013 4:46 am**

Yes ... Steel (especially stainless steel) probably has garnered the most attention for obvious reasons.

Essentially all pure metals and alloys owe their physical and chemical properties to their lattice structure ( a unit cell is the simplest repeating unit in a lattice).

The bonding that occurs in metals is "non-directional" ... Basically they are not rigidly bound in specific geometric configurations ... They are often described as a crystalline arrangement of positively charged cores surrounded by a "sea" of valence electrons.

Because of this it is easier to deform them ... Giving them their familiar characteristics of malleability, ductility, etc.

This also gives rise to defects ( ex: vacancy , dislocation, grain boundaries) ...

Each pure metal and the plethora of alloys ... All come with there own set of defects ...

Here is a decent " primer" on metallic bonding ...

http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/metals/prin.html

Since you mentioned copper and its alloys ... There is lots of bathroom reading here:

http://www.copper.org/resources/propert ... 703_5.html

Hope that helps ...

Posted: **29 Mar 2013 11:01 am**

There ya go Dave.

Posted: **29 Mar 2013 12:10 pm**

I took a shot and bought 2 sets of these strings and put one set on my Show Pro and the other on my G2. I must say that after a month of moderate use, they sound as good as the day I put them on IMHO.

I will see how long they hold up but at the current rate, they will be on for quite some time.

Sid,

I really enjoyed your guitar playing at the TSGA show. Thanks for being there.

Regards,

Posted: **31 Mar 2013 8:10 pm**

I know in my studies of gun barrels one of the key things that Cryo treating does, it releives the stress in the steel to make the barrel harmonics more consistant. I found a site on the internet. Carter Cyrogenics in Tuson, Arizona. Their web page has some very interesting reading. They list Cryoing of trumpets, mouthpieces for brass insturments, and all types of strings for guitar, violins, banjo, Their site lists strings at $2.00 each for Cryo Treatment. May be a way to get some single strings done at a high price. Good Luck and Happy Steelin

Posted: **31 Mar 2013 9:12 pm**

I've had Sid's Cryo strings on for about a month now. I practice every day, rehearse once a week, gig every weekend and have been tracking in the studio a little. These strings are AWESOME. They don't quit. They stay in tune, sustain, and stay nice and shiny. Cryo strings are for real and I hope they will always be available. I would seriously hate to go back to untreated strings.

Posted: **2 Apr 2013 10:07 am**

Sorry, we are sold out of the Cryo's.

We performed an experiment.

I had a limited amount of the Cryo’s made (E9) only to see if the Steel Guitar community wanted an even better string than we already produce.

Reception to the new string was lukewarm at best. The Cryo’s cost us $3.00 more to make so we raised the price of the strings $3.00

Now with that being said, we did sell completely out in about 2.5 months but we were selling 50 sets of the untreated strings to every 1 set of the Cryogentically tempered strings. I got your message.

I wish that the message would have been different due to the fact that the Cryo string is the silver bullet for the guy that hates to change strings.

Posted: **2 Apr 2013 11:54 am**

Sid, I am glad I bought 4 of those remaining sets of those cryo in Dallas. With luck I may not have to buy another set again. To some contrary thoughts I still think they sound better and I know they last.

Posted: **2 Apr 2013 11:52 pm**

Sid-
Don't give up! This sort of new thing takes a while to catch on - people have stocks of strings they will want to use up before trying something new.......your good reviews are just starting!

Posted: **3 Apr 2013 8:05 am**

Sid are you saying you will not be offering cryo's since you have depleted your stock

Was sure if that "was your final answer" to coin a game show term

Chuck

The Steel Guitar Forum

Cryo Strings ..........something to think about ?

Cryo Strings...............something to think about