The Steel Guitar Forum

Cal Sharp wrote:Rosemary Clooney wanted to be a sideman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbq4ardfDbg

Hear, hear

Chris Schlotzhauer wrote:So do some of you just assume that when you get hired to play with a band, you're entitled to an even split?
Most of my gigs for the past 20 years, I got hired after I agreed on the pay per gig plus some expense where applicable. Knowing full well the artist was getting a deal at the door plus overs. My deal is my deal and if he makes a killing, good for him.

Now if the artist pledged up front he would split, and he was caught skimming, that's another story.

Chris glad you clarified this for the thread. Often I am the leader, and due to this I book most of the gigs, make the calls, have the meetings, book the gear, etc. And I don't do all of this just to make even cut. So I usually tell the band that i'm incorporating a 15% commission - or if all members are backing me I get them to agree on a fee and that's it. I might lose my shirt; I may make more. But as long as it's all above board it's all good.

Steve I also worked that same club a couple of times. I was the one who went in there after Skeeter left and for what it's worth I just don't believe your story! (Sorry) The band leader you're talking about's initials are B. M.... from Bakersfield and I found him to be probably the best bandleader I've ever worked for/with... He helped me a lot and I'm thankful to him for that and I don't appreciate you putting him down on this Forum... JMHO.... ....JH in Va.

Reply to Jerry,

I am happy for you that your experience was an enjoyable one. However, my original post was intended to cover situations that cheat band members and to let other musicians voice their experiences as well. You notice, I never found it necessary to post any particular band leader's name.

However, since you doubt, I can tell you that a dear friend of mine, Mel Linton used to visit a certain band-leader at his house. Mel called me shortly before he passed away last month and told me that he saw the aforementioned awards at that leader's house. Just to name a few other members who got ripped off: Sandy Pagano, Tony Trece, Eugene Turner. Sorry to shake your faith in someone you like, but the story is all too true. If you read the rest of the replies under my post you will find that I was not the only one.

Not mentioned in my original post was also an incident where I had to call the union to collect my rightful pay. The entire band had been lied to; we were told we had to play 5 sets. When I requested and received a copy of the contract from the union, the contract specified 4 sets. My grievance went to Union arbitration and the "band leader" and "club owner" (the two names on the contract) finally had to pay me back pay on the 6 nights/wk for the 3 yrs. I had played. This can be verified through Union 357.

By the time all of this transpired, you had already left CA. Maybe that band leader was good to you, but people can change. Evidently, he changed.

This happened to me last night.
A buddy called me and asked if I was available to do an acoustic duet. PA and mics were all there, 2 hrs work, all I had to bring was my acoustic. He said it pays $100 plus tab and tips. I was off last night, so I said sure I'll be there.
We knocked it out, and the club mgr came out and handed us our cash individually with a form for tax to fill out. The cash was $125.
I just looked at my buddy and smiled.

But you agreed to do it for $100.00!!

Joe Casey wrote:But you agreed to do it for $100.00!!

This time he got lucky...Better to be the windshield than the bug.

Chris I guess I'm being dense but I'm missing your point. it looks to me like you didn't have to pay your own tab at the bar and you got 25 dollars in tips. is your point that he handed you the tax form?

Deleted

Steve, I've read all the posts in this thread and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I had nothing but good relations with this band leader and if he did what you said he did then I'm really sad about that as that's not the kind of person I thought he was.... That said, I still have some contacts who are in touch with him and maybe they can bring some light on this as the awards (if he has them rightly belong to you guys!) I saw on the ACM Website that the band won the awards in both '84 and '87.... I was still in SoCal in '84 but in Virginia in '87.... We didn't win any of the years that I was there (and maybe it was because of me, who knows? )..... I'll let you know by PM if I'm able to get any info on those awards....

On this subject, I have been financially "screwed" by a couple of SoCal bandleaders, one being a certain guy who used to emcee the Cal's Corral TV Show on Channel 13 and the other buy a guy who worked around Covina and that area. The guy in covina was the worst. He came to a club I was working in Orange Country looking for a band. He said he was starting at this club called "Next Time Country" and needed a bass, drums, and steel and he couldn't pay much to start off. The three of us were sick of the person we were working with so we gave our notice...... This would have been around the late seventies or early eighties, I'm not sure. Anyway he said he could start us at $250 apiece for six nights but he'd be sure to get us more later. We worked there awhile and never got a raise but the bass player started dating the bartender/office manager and one night he was helping her out after the club had closed and saw what was being paid out to the band. It came to $1,500.00 a week! The three of us were getting $250 each for a total of $750 and he was taking $750 for himself. Since this wasn't a union house we quit at the end of the week with no notice to try to get back at him. But it didn't work, the next Tuesday night he had another group who all played as well as we did, I guess we should have found other work before we left him... Oh well, that's life.

Anyway, good luck with what you're doing now and I hope you the best, I can attest that you're a fine steel guitarist and keep it up!......JH in Va.

Jerry, I believe I also worked for the other band leaders you refer to. When we are young, we are so anxious to play that we often work for slave wages. Over the years, I have worked with a few (very few) band leaders who did not lie about their "star" pay they took. They offered side-man pay and you could take it or leave it--no deceit.

As we get older and wiser, we realize that our talent deserves some respect, and that respect should show up in respectable wages. I too like to make enough money to buy a ham sandwich on the way home from a gig.

After a long and arduous career of slave wages, getting ripped-off and totally disrespected by band leaders, club owners, promoters, etc., I finally hooked up 2 years ago with recording artist Tom Bovine. Granted, Tom does not sing like a smooth nightengale (Tom jokes about it) but I am treated like a human being and compensated as though my talent counts as part of his sound. Being treated well now has made me realize just how much crap most of us endured just to play. My next rant is about clubs where you pay to play--disgusting! Again, more disrespect! The musicians do the work and other people make the money.

By the way Jerry, nice looking Gibson.

My take,after a lot of time in the biz,is that in country anyway,it's a leader-sideman setup,and it's bad form to talk about money with anyone in the band except the boss,and then only in regard to one's own compensation.If I go to work for someone,I make my best deal and let it go at that.I don't need to know what the band got for the gig,and I don't need to know the split,as long as I make what I think my work is worth.To me,it's a work group,not my family.

Things are not always cut and dry and Leaders take a hit too.. lets turn things around a bit..We were playing a club (Lynns Lounge now a parking lot) and it was during a State fair week..The place was packed and the band always recieved free drinks 4 nights a week..When I called the owner during the day,I told him I was bringing a Nashville Artist and his band there that night and he quickly said He would feed them and Drinks too as he had done a time or two before..They did the second set and tore the place up....Well he certainly served them Drinks (mostly beers)but about the third set he told me I would have a bill at the end of the night..And it was already over 100.00..I argued for a minute about his word but he said he would just take it out of the bands pay..When I told my band about it of course they were mad..So I told them I'll pay you for the night,Lets pack up right now walk on out..They went to the owner who said let Joe go and the Jobs yours..So the Nashville Artist and his band helped me carry out the PA ,all my quipment and the Three piece band stayed and sang thru their amps and got fired after the weekend...I opened up the following week at a great club with My friends Nashville drummer and Lead man (he also came out and did two sets) who were still at the fair for 15 days..If they My guys had walked out that night with me they would have had a 20 dollar raise because that new club paid better..The Owner had been trying to get me to make a move for over a year..Until he hired me he was bringing in different bands each weekend..But he kept us until he sold the place..Even let me bring in Nashville Artists and their bands..Faron was the first ...The place seated about 350 when full..My only reason for the long story is I have always been loyal to my band and expected no less..Up and to that time everyone was paid equal except myself..I had added another piece and I made the difference up out of my own pocket..And I can guaranty you all that not only did things get better for me ,but for my bands also..PS.. Jim Smith who had worked with me when Doc Peters and I started the County Reunion band..Came back the night we opened the new club and remained with me until he moved to Texas..One of the most loyal and best musicians I have ever worked with...

Equal split or nothing. It's a GROUP.

I don't think nothing pays the bills..

Kevin Hatton wrote:...It's a GROUP.

It might be a "group", but it isn't always a "group". Just to make an extreme argument, let's say you're invited to sit in with the Eagles for a night. They are a group. You are a sideman. Don't expect equal pay.

Its a group when everyone has the same investment in The PA,Replacement of needed equipment Mikes ect..Phone,Gas,Advirtistments,negotiations of Getting contracts signed,promo packages in general bills necessary to keep the work coming.. Its not a group when one is hired to play for an Artist..And the Artist is the headline..Then Its called a band..Its the players right or judgement if a salary or per night pay is agreed upon is fair or not, to accept the work..If a leader tells the players its equal pay then this posts headline is acurate and the leader is a plain liar and that will bite him in the ass, as soon as no one wants to work for him..One has to define moreso the difference between a Job and a party..Working for Club owners was never a party..

Kevin Hatton wrote:Equal split or nothing. It's a GROUP.

When it's an actual group, yes. When one of that group is also the default booking agent/manager, it should no longer be even split unless that one person likes to do a bunch of work for free while everyone else just shows up for the gig. Sometimes in groups everyone does his/her share of booking, etc. So then the commission is understandably waived. But it's not fair for a band to split pay evenly if one guy is busting his ass with band logistics.

I was in a band that had a seven-year run before the bassist left and was replaced by another. By this time we had worked our way up from small bars to concerts, and there was no way this bass player was going to just waltz in and reap the benefits of even cut while having done none of the groundwork to earn it. So he agreed to a set rate of pay and that was it. I can guarantee you it works like this in virtually all big bands.

I read somewhere that Springsteen pays his band even cut. I bet he doesn't share his royalties with them, though.

Chris LeDrew wrote:

Kevin Hatton wrote:Equal split or nothing. It's a GROUP.

I was in a band that had a seven-year run before the bassist left and was replaced by another. By this time we had worked our way up from small bars to concerts, and there was no way this bass player was going to just waltz in and reap the benefits of even cut while having done none of the groundwork to earn it.

Yeah, I doubt that the Stones' new bass player gets what Bill Wyman did.

about the turn of this new century i ran into a player i hadn't seen i years. i had last seen him backing a nashville star in the 8o's on a package show. i didn't really understand all the details then of being a nashville sideman. it was all glamor.
we were discussing the nashville days and he told of his climb there, 'til the bubble burst and he left. the nightlife caught up to him and the thrill was gone. he left with a lasting impression of honesty.
he had worked, early on, with a guy named joe casey, that was the most honest bandleader he had met and he knew of one or more instances where joe paid the band from his pocket after being ripped by dishonest club owners or agents.
this was before i had ever seen the name joe casey!

Cal Sharp wrote:

Chris LeDrew wrote:

Kevin Hatton wrote:Equal split or nothing. It's a GROUP.

I was in a band that had a seven-year run before the bassist left and was replaced by another. By this time we had worked our way up from small bars to concerts, and there was no way this bass player was going to just waltz in and reap the benefits of even cut while having done none of the groundwork to earn it.

Yeah, I doubt that the Stones' new bass player gets what Bill Wyman did.

Just like the Eagles don't pay Steuart(sp?) Smith what Don Felder got.

Kevin Hatton wrote:I never ran into a band leader who was honest enough to pay his band when he wasn't.

I have

Kevin Hatton wrote:I never ran into a band leader who was honest enough to pay his band when he wasn't.

As bandleader, I've done that on several occasions in the past, when necessary. Fortunately it doesn't come up too often.

Chris Schlotzhauer wrote:So do some of you just assume that when you get hired to play with a band, you're entitled to an even split?
Most of my gigs for the past 20 years, I got hired after I agreed on the pay per gig plus some expense where applicable. Knowing full well the artist was getting a deal at the door plus overs. My deal is my deal and if he makes a killing, good for him.

Now if the artist pledged up front he would split, and he was caught skimming, that's another story.

I have often taken an extra cut as bandleader. I was making payments on the PA, doing all the booking and promo work, making all the phone calls, furnished the van etc etc. The band members knew up front and it was their choice.

I don't think there is, or should be any assumption that everyone gets paid the same. However, as Chris alluded, if the bandleader is lying about it, that is another story.

This thread started over pickle dishes?