Is it really that hard to figure out ?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 Jul 2012 4:35 pm

Donny Hinson wrote: ...Of course, steelers are guilty too, since YouTube posts on playing intros, rides, and melodies on pedal steel seem to outnumber those on playing rhythm on pedal steel by about two thousand to one!

I can't recommend playing Rhythm Styeel to anybody whose ability is less than a strong advanced-intermediate.
I tell everybody in the Novice/Beginner/Adv Beginner/Intermediate range that playing "Rhythm Steel" is the fastest way to make the entire band sound out of tune, up on the Bandstand.
Get in and get out. Don't noodle.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 16 Jul 2012 5:46 pm

I was asked to sit in with a band, many years ago, and since the steel guitar is the "unusual" instrument I was getting a lot of attention, which caused the lead guitar, who was used to getting all the attention, to play over my solos. So I pushed down a little harder on the volume pedal. Lo and behold, he turned up a little louder on the guitar and I packed up and went home after the 2nd set.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 16 Jul 2012 7:03 pm

The "now day" tele picker most of the time cannot play chords or anything resembling rhythm.............maybe a little tick bass if you can get them to quit walking on you or the singer.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 Jul 2012 9:51 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:

I was in a situation once where the guitarist argued with me about it. saying something along the lines of "I don't know what that thing (the steel) does, but I'm the lead guitarist, I play the leads."
Where do you guys come up with these guitarists?

Well this was just one guy, and he disappeared VERY quickly.

This was during the Urban Cowboy craze when a lost of rock musicians put on cowboy hats, hired a steel or fiddle player, learned the tunes from the movie, and called themselves country musicians.

Alan Tanner · Post by **Alan Tanner** » 17 Jul 2012 3:29 am

Alan Brookes wrote:
Donny Hinson wrote:Many modern "lead guitarists" know only how to play lead because that's where 99.9% of the emphasis is...
Another thing I've noticed is that, unlike the old days, when instrumental breaks were sympathetic to the melody, a lot of modern lead guitarists go off into a little world of their own, and their riffs are aimed at showing people how fast they can run their fingers up and down the scales. The number soon becomes an instrumental with vocal breaks, rather than the other way round.

It has been my experience that western swing is JUST that. The usual "look at me" vocals take a back seat to the music. Often the tune will be played over MANY times in great variation, and gives everyone a chance to step out. When I can stand it, I listen to the "modern country" station here. I HAVE noted that often times EVERYONE is playing and it sounds like crap. Maybe this is why newer music sounds so bland, nothing at all steps out. It is a pleasure to work with a full stage of guys who know how to do it. Steel, guitar, fiddle, piano, all keeping their heads up and watching for each other. But the opposite can be a very trying and not so pleasurable an experience. I attend a jam of sorts every now and then here locally. There is one older steeler there who thinks he has to rattle the windows and peel the paint off the walls. Some will say he cant hear. Well, even if he couldn't hear well, he can SEE. Anyone can see when someone else wants to take a turn. But he is undeterred and will bare down the whole tune. A lot of these types cannot kick a tune off to save their lives, and if they do it's usually off tempo. But just wait till the song gets going. Then it's katy bar the door. The best thing, and the hardest for some, is to NOT play loud, even tho' someone else does, and not sit there and woodshed while someone else is playing. There is certainly nothing wrong with taking your hands off your instrument and laying back. BTW...this guy has been approached for years about his picking habits and volume, but no avail.....I guess ya either gotta try and talk or hint it out, put up with it, or stay home.Some guys WANT to learn to play well with others, and some just don't or won't "get it".

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 17 Jul 2012 9:10 am

It's interesting to compare country music to traditional jazz, where several brass instruments are often playing over each other in the same range of notes. It seems to work with traditional jazz, but if you try that same technique with string instruments it just sounds like a mixed up mess.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 17 Jul 2012 9:17 am

I am disturbed that Mike knows what it feels like to have your "Penis amputated". My condolences to you and your wife.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 17 Jul 2012 10:00 am

I was wondering when anybody would pick up on the analogy.

But no, I was the steel player who wanted to perform the surgery on these clowns

, not the potential amputee.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 17 Jul 2012 10:40 am

Some guys can get away with packing up and either leaving or threatening to leave. And some guys can't. I don't think I'd try it.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 17 Jul 2012 12:04 pm

I don't blame you Ed. In my case, where I did do it, it was simple. We are playing for FUN and some bucks. Not a livelyhood. It was not fun, it happened way too often, hence, it was not to continue. My grandma once told me, when I was in 9th grade or so, and broke up with my girlfriend

, there's more fish in the sea!

PS She dumped me! The girlfriend not my grandma!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 17 Jul 2012 1:47 pm

The other thing I like to do and have done over the years as needed, is...
Find out who some of the offending guitar players "Guitar Idols" are.
Then start saying stuff like... "I love the way [his Idols Name here] completely lays out when the other players in the band are playing their parts.
He really shows that he respects the other players contributions to the song by not playing over top of them.
Hey... maybe you and I could do that???".

I've had to finish a coupla those by saying...
"Can we settle this with an arm wrestling match?"
I fear no wee-nee armed lead player!!!

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 18 Jul 2012 11:29 am

Well,you do have to be a pro about things,which includes never telling another sideman how or how loud to play.It also includes avoiding having to work with doofus players who know how to play,but not when or what NOT to play.

Fortunately,doofus players tend to congregate where the money ISN'T,so charging a high price for your work will keep you away from those environments and in the company of musicians and bandleaders whose respect(and paycheck) you must work to earn.

Unfortunately,doofuspox is an extremely contagious occupational disease and you can catch it almost without knowing it.One of the first symptoms is when you agree to an offstage audition instead of being hired for a gig with the understanding it may lead to more work.Another is when you agree to playing free "for the exposure".As has been said here many times before,what you'll be exposed to will invariably be more doofuses who feel entitled to free work.Yet another is getting involved with a "democratic" band.In those outfits,there is always a bloc that runs things but finds it expedient to hide the fact.

Fortunately,doofus bands and players exhibit non-musical signs of the affliction.One is the ad-usually on CL- that talks about where they practice rather than where they gig.Another is some variation on "We have jobs and families".Yet another is the use of the expressions "show" and "playing out".

IMO the most hilariously accurate example of a doofus band occurs in the movie "Sling Blade"-the party scene.

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 18 Jul 2012 1:49 pm

I've learned a few things in my years as a steel player:

- Know WhenTo Shut Up which is usually most of the time.
- If your name ISN'T on the marquee then it's NOT about you.
- The song is more important than you are.
- if the singer's lips are moving don't play anything except......maybe.......a chord.
- See that singer? His name is Tex. Make him sound good.
- First gig with a band? Standing around on break and they're asking you questions? Try this line: "My job is to make the song and the singer sound good.". Then shut up and do it. The singer now thinks you're the best. The others think you're a pro because no one else does that

Hello callback.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 18 Jul 2012 2:00 pm

Dave said - Fortunately,doofus players tend to congregate where the money ISN'T,so charging a high price for your work will keep you away from those environments and in the company of musicians and bandleaders whose respect(and paycheck) you must work to earn.

Now thats some good advice! I will keep that in mind for next time!

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 18 Jul 2012 2:53 pm

Except I know some high priced musicians that suck at playing with others. And, I know many that play for nothing, or for what local venues actually pay, that are excellent team players. So I really don't agree totally with the "high price" theory.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 18 Jul 2012 3:32 pm

So now what do I do? I was counting on you guys to figure this out for me! I'm so confused. $:\$

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 18 Jul 2012 3:45 pm

I have this problem in one band I work with. Six-piece band, with a great lead-player (who doesn't over-play and gets great country tone out of his Tele), and a rhythm-cum-lead player who plays too loud and uses a distortion pedal constantly. He's what we call a "pub-rock" guitarist, and that's pretty much his background.

Part of the problem with this player is we suspect he has partial hearing-loss. I recently had my hearing tested. (I have spent decades around aircraft engines and loud firearms) and I know I have equal response in both ears from 200Hz to 5Khz, but I have a slight dip in response in my left ear at about 1Khz. If you are a player you need to know this! Try suggesting to a guitar-player he should have his hearing tested...it's a red rag to a bull!

Another problem with this player is he competes with the lead-guitarist. Now the lead-player can play circles around him, but he still has to compete. Why? What's the point?

As others have pointed out, a lot of guitarists think they have to play all the time. The whole band sounds way too "busy". On steel, I have the great luxury of not needing to be there much at all. All I have to do is play the least amount possible, as tastefully as I can.

In fact, I lay out for a lot of stuff the band does. No member has ever complained about this, but others are muttering about the too-loud guitar-player. Given enough time, he will get the message and modify his technique - or leave. We really don't mind which. (Anybody ever hear of a global shortage of rhythm guitar-players??)

Jake Hoffman · Post by **Jake Hoffman** » 18 Jul 2012 4:03 pm

Turn to the offender and politely say, "How can I miss you if you won't go away?".

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 18 Jul 2012 7:02 pm

Bud Angelotti wrote:So now what do I do? I was counting on you guys to figure this out for me! I'm so confused. $:\$

Bud,what we are talking about is not music but the music business.If you're working with a doofus player,you have to be realistic and accept that not only can you not help,but that anything you do to try to help will end up wasted effort.You basically have only one choice-to stop working with that player.Whether he gets another gig or you do depends on all the myriad dynamics unique to your work group-and your own situational awareness as to who gets the axe if push comes to shove.Don't be that guy

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 23 Jul 2012 3:45 pm

I've worked with a lot of guys like this. They're just guitarded.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 23 Jul 2012 4:41 pm

I hear you brother Dave! Now to add ANOTHER angle to the "drama". This guy not only plays too loud and too much,(just plays all the way thru almost every song) he is also my FRIEND. They are genuinely nice folks. The invite me to play and I am lucky to be able to do so. And I don't want to be a knowitall. In this case, it is SEMI pro. Not super serious, yet as I'm sure you guys realize, the fun, for me anyway, just gets sucked out. By the way, I'm one of those people that really doesn't like loud music, unless I'm one of the ones thats makin the noise.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 24 Jul 2012 9:27 am

At least with modern music the musicians are individually miked, so you can mix down some of the unwanted sounds. I remember in the 60s you were either all bunched around one microphone, or, if you were really up-to-date, you had two microphones for stereo. You determined the volume by spacing the performers at different distances from the microphones. One friend who turned up at our jam sessions only played the harmonica, and badly at that. I would dearly love to be able to mix him out of those old reel-to-reel tapes, but he's there for ever. $:\$