The Steel Guitar Forum

on the faces of Paul Franklin and John Hughey playing with the Time Jumpers and I think the sound is coming form somwhere other than a mechanical setup on a guitar....

E. Bovine's "E5th" tuning from Severed Head in a Bag may deserve the "Back to the Basics" award for elegance and simplicity:

http://b0b.com/tunings/ebovine.html#C6

(Scroll down to just below the band photo.)

I feel cheated by the omission of his tuning offsets.

I have no choice but to go back to the basics, as the Sho~Bud I am playing now only has 8 & 2. lol

I totally get what Paul is saying, and for someone in his position, a fully loaded guitar would be a must have. For my playing, I can get by fine on a more basic setup, since I don't have the same pressure to sound like the original steel player as someone in Paul's position would.

Besides, I wouldn't sound as good as the steel guitar legends if my guitar had 20 pedals and 20 knee levers!!! lol

To be clear....My E9th is not a loaded set up. I have two more pedals than Lloyd. I was merely pointing out pedal setups, (a few or a lot) are of no advantage to me without giving some serious thought into exactly what the changes do musically......A goal has to be seen.....Lane said if he couldn't play at least three things with a change in his head he does not put it on......That is a great concept.

If I were a beginner this thread would be like a blood bank to a vampire.

My advice to any new player is to pick either the standard Buddy Emmons setup or Day set up with four knees and three pedals (Doesn't matter which) and don't worry about adding anything for a few years of serious Newman study....After that you'll be ready to start thinking for yourself in any musical direction. I firmly believe overloading yourself with information from several varied approaches all at once will leave you spinning like a top instead of rolling forward.

Paul

Franklin said - My advice to any new player is to pick either the standard Buddy Emmons setup or Day set up with four knees and three pedals (Doesn't matter which) and don't worry about adding anything for a few years of serious Newman study....After that you'll be ready to start thinking for yourself in any musical direction. I firmly believe overloading yourself with information from several varied approaches all at once will leave you spinning like a top instead of rolling forward.

This statement from a top pro deserves repeating.
And Paul, if you don't mind, concerning back to basics, what about amps and gadgets, etc.
PS - IMHOP, This simple knowledge, freely given by a top pro, should be re-posted every few weeks so that as new folks come on board, they don't have to search thru mountains of monkey business to get some really practical imformation that they can really use to get up and running.

Must be a genetic thing with steel players. I mean, you don't see many violins with 6, 7, or 8 strings now, do 'ya?

So I have got this '74 PP with 8+5, a Sarno Black Box, Hilton VP, Audio Arts 4-band EQ and compressor, PCM70 Reverb, Crown power amp and JBL 15" speakers. Great rig, very esoteric, and it mostly stays at home while I take my little 3+2 Pro I out to play with my Ernie Ball VP plugged into a Randall Steel Man amp with internal spring reverb.

The added changes and sophistication of the big rig are very useful for some genres (mostly when copping other folks' licks - see PF's post above - and interfacing with large sound systems), but with that ShoBud single coil the 3+2 sounds fabulous, it is so fast and fun and it plays real music all night long!

Franklin wrote:If I were a beginner this thread would be like a blood bank to a vampire.

My advice to any new player is to pick either the standard Buddy Emmons setup or Day set up with four knees and three pedals (Doesn't matter which) and don't worry about adding anything for a few years of serious Newman study....After that you'll be ready to start thinking for yourself in any musical direction. I firmly believe overloading yourself with information from several varied approaches all at once will leave you spinning like a top instead of rolling forward.

Paul

As a newbie who's taken the step to upgrade from a starter 3x1 instrument, choosing a copedent is a nightmare!

Mark Daniels wrote:As a newbie who's taken the step to upgrade from a starter 3x1 instrument, choosing a copedent is a nightmare!

As a "newbie", choosing a copedent is not something that you should have to think about. You need the standard E9th, 3 pedals and 3 knee levers. Anything more can be ignored for several years while you master the basics.
[tab] ---- foot pedals ---- ---- knee levers ----
"A" "B" "C" "D" "E" "F"
1 F#
2 D# ---------------------------- D
3 G# ---------- A
4 E ---------------- F# -------------- D# -- F
5 B ---- C# -------- C#
6 G# ---------- A
7 F#
8 E ---------------------------------- D# -- F
9 D
10 B ---- C# [/tab]
see www.b0b.com/infoedu/e9theory.htm

b0b wrote:

Mark Daniels wrote:As a newbie who's taken the step to upgrade from a starter 3x1 instrument, choosing a copedent is a nightmare!

As a "newbie", choosing a copedent is not something that you should have to think about. You need the standard E9th, 3 pedals and 3 knee levers. Anything more can be ignored for several years while you master the basics.
[tab] ---- foot pedals ---- ---- knee levers ----
"A" "B" "C" "D" "E" "F"
1 F#
2 D# ---------------------------- D
3 G# ---------- A
4 E ---------------- F# -------------- D# -- F
5 B ---- C# -------- C#
6 G# ---------- A
7 F#
8 E ---------------------------------- D# -- F
9 D
10 B ---- C# [/tab]
see www.b0b.com/infoedu/e9theory.htm

Sorry to disagree with b0b but 3 and 3 is not the starting place to be able to utilize all of Newman's or whoever's tablature....Single neck and D10's in most brands of steels come standard with three pedals and four knees......These changes are the bare minimum needed to advance through tablature......In addition to this copedant ......Raising the F#s to G is on the standard fourth lever. And the D# lever should lower the D# to D and C# using a half step and it should also lower the ninth string D to C#.......Those four knee lever changes have been the standard changes for instructional purposes since Jeff started tabs his school in the 70's......

That's the starting point a beginner needs to take advantage of Newman's vast library of instructional courses........

Paul

Having less knees sometimes forces you to explore the guitar's capability more. Then again, new knees open up other possibilities. I agree that more knees get in the way as a beginner.

I prefer raising 1 to G and lowering 6 to F#, letting the B pedal take it to G.
Other than that, I agree totally with Paul.
Mark, if you're buying a second-hand guitar, I'd probably leave it alone, or if it differs much from B0b/Paul, post the copedent here and see whether it's worth changing.
If ordering a new guitar, the basic 4 knees should do you fine.

I guess I missed the Newman courses that use the G lever and the 9th string lower. Jeff didn't have a half-stop on his 2nd string, though he might have mentioned it in his courses.

Jeff Newman got on my case (in front of the whole class) for not having an X lever. It was embarrassing - some of you might have been there. He didn't mention the half stop, the 9th string lower or the G lever at all, but he was real big on the X lever (B to Bb). I think his influence was the reason that the Carter Starter had X and not G.

I don't want to argue with heavyweights like Jeff Newman or Paul Franklin. They have both taught many more beginners than I have. Maybe a more complex copedent actually is a better starting point. I just feel that anything less than the 3+3 in my chart is an incomplete musical system. On that I think we can agree.

b0b,

I should say the above set up is not my brainchild but I endorse it 100% for the beginner......I'm not trying to step on yours or anyones toes. This is the basic setup most of us cut our teeth on......Its such a simple idea...The basic chord types (Majors, Minors, Dom7ths, Min7ths, 6ths) are right there in front of the player in the perfect positions to access easily.

I believe Lloyd still uses this exact setup minus he does not lower his top E to Eb......Just sayin' Its simple and well thought out.....I actually believe this is also Buddy's exact setup on the Black album....This setup is hard to beat.

Paul

b0b wrote:Jeff Newman got on my case (in front of the whole class) for not having an X lever. It was embarrassing - some of you might have been there. He didn't mention the half stop, the 9th string lower or the G lever at all, but he was real big on the X lever (B to Bb). I think his influence was the reason that the Carter Starter had X and not G.

I remember a column Jeff wrote back in the Seventies (I think--maybe early Eighties), when he was writing a regular column on steel guitar for Guitar Player magazine, that was devoted to advocating the "X" lever. The gist of it, paraphrased, was "the standard factory setup has the fourth knee lever as G raises on 1 and 7. Why not drop that and instead have one that's actually useful?"

I think in the copedent charts I've seen, beside not lowering the 4th string, Lloyd also varies from the old factory standard setup by only raising the 1st string to G, not the 7th.

This is why I only consider 3 knee levers to be standard. The world's best players don't agree on what the 4th lever should be. It's hard to argue that the 7th string raise to G or the 5th string lower to Bb is indispensable when some world class players don't have one or the other.

Myself, I can play everything I need without either of them. I think of 3+3 as the complete minimum requirement, and everything else as icing on the cake.

There's not even complete agreement on #3. Most take 2 down to C#, but many stop at D.
Not everyone drops 9

b0b wrote:...(Jeff) was real big on the X lever (B to Bb). I think his influence was the reason that the Carter Starter had X and not G...

Franklin wrote:...Raising the F#s to G is on the standard fourth lever...

I began on a Starter and got a Mullen 3X4 a few years later. Nearly identical setup but that 2 and 9 went to C# on RKR, and the fourth lever (RKL) raised F# on 1 to G#, and lowered 6 instead. I found myself using this more than X. I did eventually add an X lever later. It seemed a bit more practical to me on a vertical. I dont feel X is essential though, as it is often achieved by half pedaling A. If limited to a basic 3X4, Id probably choose G (or some variation of it) over X. Just my opinion. Now its back to the basics again for me: picks, bar and dobro. I got a long long way to go!

Clete

Clete, you don't find the A# useful?

I find all 12 notes useful from time to time!
I would find A# more useful with the X lever if it was a bit more in tune. My A# always B flat. I dont have split tuning and I generally tune it with A. I still find it a bit awkward using X by itself too. Maybe thats another reason I dont find it essential: I havent come up with more than three ways to use it yet.

Clete

The last few posts do underline my point about copedents being a nightmare for the newbie !!

Starting on a 3x1 as great fun and it got me hooked and really wanting to learn more about this great instrument. However, this next step is a lot trickier as there are so many different choices. The posts by B0b and Paul have been a real help, so thanks a lot guys.

I should start another thread really as this is an interesting discussion on it's own.

Apologies for the OP for the move from the initial topic.

Lane Gray wrote: Mark, if you're buying a second-hand guitar, I'd probably leave it alone, or if it differs much from B0b/Paul, post the copedent here and see whether it's worth changing.
If ordering a new guitar, the basic 4 knees should do you fine.

I've got a new guitar coming from Ron Bennett here in the UK so I get to choose. Really excited about it all

The most common 3rd knee is 2 to C# with a half-stop at D and 9 to C#. If you don't take 2 to C#, the Emmons Cross becomes more challenging: hear the 3rd bar of the intro at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFj680v3xM8
You didn't say whether you have 4 knees or 5; if 4, I'd suggest a variant of the G lever; whether you drop 6 or raise 7 doesn't quite matter, And there are advantages to either.
We have thought about putting Paul and Buddy in a steel cage match to settle the debate, since Jeff isn't around anymore.

Jeff changed over time with a lot of his stances over things like this and pick blocking. He grew as a teacher which is why IMO he was the best at what he did........

BTW that setup I advocate was also one Jeff and most of us pro's used during the late 60's and early 70's and most of us have a slight variation of this exact setup today.....I know this about Jeff because we taught together. Although he convinced Carter guitars to put on the X lever which happened to be his favorite and he loved the b5 sound because it was more big bandish. We agreed in our classroom times that it was easier for most to understand dominant7ths with the F# to G Mooney lever.

The thing about this setup is simple....Without any bar movement once all six of the major grips are memorized this setup provides the most bang for the buck....Again this is the brainchild of many brilliant players which I adopted when I was first learning.

The beginners learn the grips first and then they are taught the basic chords. Majors and Minors, Dominant7ths and Minor 7ths, Major 6ths etc.

On that set up with pedals down and no bar movement you get the dominant 7th across the grips by adding the F# to G....That is the easiest position to find for the beginner to understand because his root note for that chord does stay in position.

By having the half stop on the second string dominant 7ths are also found by adding the 2nd string with the D# to D lever and the 9th strings to all of the grips.

By lowering the D# to C# and lowering the 9th string D to C# the major sixth is played by adding those 2 strings to the grips.......Now musically once they understand the 6th chord, the teacher explains that the 6th chords can also be thought of a minor 7ths.......Again across the strings in position.

The student does not have to move his bar to have everything in front of him with this setup......Another thing is with the F# to G strings you get all of those Mooney sevenths. With the D# lowered to C# you get those unisons that also when released create the Counter point move......Again without moving the bar........All of the other changes like the X lever deals with altered chords........A beginner can decide he wants those altered changes once they understand where the basics can be found.....Building a strong and fundamental foundation for music is crucial for the beginner to understand.

The most basic leading sound is the dominant7th chord......Without the F# to G lever, when he's in the pedals down position like an F major at the 8th fret he
has to leave the root position to add the b7 note...Moving two frets back with B pedal down and lowering the E's to Eb is a simple enough move, musically, if you are teaching them theory its confusing.....This move causes him confusion. They always wonder why the root has moved to a different string in this new position instead of just adding a b7 in the home position where he's starting to get comfortable with.

So when you guys talk simplicity think about that issue......If you know nothing about music and you start from book one would you agree that having all of these most basic and most commonly used chords in front of you within all of the grips is much easier to understand? Forget about what you all would prefer to have.....The beginner just needs to know the most basic stuff so they can get to a place where they can decide what they want to use.

If anyone has a better case to make for an even more simpler way to make these basic chords with the chord grips every student must learn as home base,
It might be very educational for us to hear it.......I personally don't know of a simpler set up to learn on or a more well thought out setup to teach than this earliest Buddy Emmons setup.

Paul

Great stuff!!

Lane Gray wrote: You didn't say whether you have 4 knees or 5; if 4, I'd suggest a variant of the G lever; whether you drop 6 or raise 7 doesn't quite matter, And there are advantages to either.

It's "just" the 3x4 although there's still time to add more levers and pedals if I want to.