The Steel Guitar Forum

I'm with Gary Lee---Let's see a very simple example---even a beginner can understand--- of how to use the scale below.
A melodic minor ascending
A,B,C,D,E,F#,G#,A.
Where is that scale best played on the E9th neck? What are the 3 "best" chords the band is playing--- will this scale fit with? "Let me define what type of cord the band would be playing---A simple 3 note chord that is NOT resolving."
This way a person can get a friend with a guitar to play the chord in question, and then play the A melodic minor scale against the chord. The only problem with this approach is that some people will not understand the sound of an extended or complex scale. I once was accused by a band leader of being out of tune, because he did not understand the A note in my C6th neck tuning. To him a guitar tuned in C should only have CEG notes in the tuning. Honestly this really happend to me. From that point on I only played E9th triads in that particular band.

Gary, that's what a teacher is for.

Geez, thanks for sharing that, I feel informed...

Keith, a long time ago, Jamey Aebersold was burning up my free time with said scales, examples, exercises, etc. There was a learning curve assimilating his guidance to practical application on steel. Fast forward to present day...well, I still can't pick worth a <...>, but I can sure fool a few....must be the facial machinations... a prerequisite to playing steel

Gary , You Ain't Foolin' Nobody!!!! Slick !!! Your a great player and don't have to take a back seat to No! one. Well maybe A few HA!!!! Gary Lee plays enough to Warrant listening to ANYTHING he might Offer up Fellers..
Peace
Boo Miller

Well, fellers, there could be a post (maybe over in "Tablature") showing a position or two for the melodic minor scale, and noting some chords it could be played over. Then somebody would have a new lick or two.

But serious perusal of this thread, working out how the scale formula is different than the plain ol' major scale, going to the guitar and noodling around for a few hours to find some logical pockets or patterns, finding or recording some tracks with the changes mentioned here, and shedding on those positions and pockets over the tracks... will teach the seeker far more about the scales, usage, sound, and music in general, than a few licks and examples.

Like a lot else about musicianship, seat time is everything.

It's all about how you organize the notes of the scale you are playing. The safest way to start is by playing the scale in harmonized triads and finding little useful patterns. I believe in learning patterns, too, like you find in those Jazz books like Patterns for Jazz (Coker) and Patterns for Improvisation (Nelson) and better yet Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, which is very, very challenging unless you understand how he presents the material.

For a static Amin chord, for example, you simply play through the inversions of alternating D7 and E7 triads--it's very effective and informative. This would be Melodic Minor.

I don't play pedal steel and my default mode is guitar, so here is an example for 6 string guitar:

[tab]
---5--------5---7-------7--8-------8--10--------12----
--------7------------9----------10-----------12-------
-----7------------9----------11-----------13-----------
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
[/tab]

etc. So many examples of way to use these scales.

If you want to hear what the melodic minor scale sounds like in action, listen to John Scofield.

Keith, in my searches into modes on E9, an A melodic minor can easily be played @ frets 3 or 15 starting on string 7 and walking up the scale 7-6-6B-5-5A-2-4F-1. The chord 7-6B-5A-4F makes is an AmMaj7.

If you are going from an Am to an E or E7 the scale fits pretty well.

(I would have tabbed it but I don't know how to do that on here.)

Joe, I will check out what you posted. By the way, I enjoy your steel work on RFD T.V. When you were in Branson you should of come by Ozark and visted with me. Next time do it. By the way, we play once a month near the RFD T.V. Theatre in Branson, at Treasure Lake. Next time check with me and I may be playing there while you are in Branson.

Will do Keith. We are scheduled for Oct. 26 at RFD, I believe.

Mike Neer wrote:

I don't play pedal steel .

I rest my case

Sentencing to follow...post haste...

Gary Lee Gimble wrote:

Mike Neer wrote:

I don't play pedal steel .

I rest my case

Sentencing to follow...post haste...

Well, I do play a little steel, though, so be lenient.

I was trying to think of a good, simple example which would illustrate how and where to use the melodic minor scale that most steel players would know and it occurred to me this morning. This is right from one of my own lessons.

Four Wheel Drive by Buddy Emmons is perfect place to show how to use melodic minor.

Here are the chords to the A section:

/C . . ./F7 . . ./C . . ./A7 . . ./
/D7 . . ./G7 . . ./Em7 . A7 ./Dm7 . G7 ./
/C . . ./F7 . . ./C . . ./A7 . . ./
/D7 . . ./G7 . . ./C . . ./. . . ./

If you listen to the melody, each time in the 4th bar that the chord goes to A7, Buddy plays a Bbmin triad before letting the F note resolve to an E, which yields the chords A7#5b9 and A7b9, the F being the #5.

If you follow what I said earlier about playing the melodic minor 1/2 step above the root of your dominant 7th chord which functions as a V7, the same also applies for a dominant 7th which functions as a VI7, in this case A7. If you're not clear on what I mean, Am is the vi chord of C--A7 would be the VI7 of C.

We can employ notes of the Bb melodic minor scale (in this case it would be called the A Altered scale) here: A Bb C C# Eb F G. Don't worry about the E that you hear in the melody--focus on just playing the scale above. The change goes by quickly, so you must only use it for the one measure (the 4th).

Here's where it gets interesting: we can continue to use the melodic minor modes through the next 2 chords.

Check it out: when a dominant 7th chord is functioning as a II7, we use the Lydian Dominant mode, which is the melodic minor scale one 5th above the root of the chord--in this case the chord is D7, the melodic minor scale would be A melodic minor, starting on D. D E F# G# A B C.

Now, the next chord is G7 which will ultimately be resolving to C, although there is a cycle of ii-v7s in the first 1/2 of the A section. Since G7 is resolving, we can apply the same principal that we used above: play the melodic minor 1/2 step above G7, or Ab melodic minor (also called G Altered).

If you take a look back at what we have here, you'll see that we have just incorporated 3 melodic minor scales: Bb mel. min., A mel. min. and Ab mel. min. Notice anything about this? They descend chromatically. How cool is that? We've turned a I VI7 II7 V7 into a vehicle for our melodic minor scale and it conveniently descends chromatically.

We can even get more involved with it than that by playing a C melodic minor scale in bar 2 over the F7 (F Lydian dominant). There are many, many possibilities.

Paul Franklin said in his last seminar that when he practiced scales that is what they sounded like when he played them, scales. I think most steel guitar playing is based around chords. A friend of mine was the music director for the US Navy band for 20 years. He plays jazz piano very well. He asked me if pentatonic scales were easy to play on the steel. He gave me a example of some outside notes that would work well aghnist a 7th chord. Example in F playing within a C7 (5dom 7)chord mixing in some Gb pentatonic notes for an outside effect. It is my opinion that simplyfing and using examples such as what I just mentioned may be one way to go.

W Franco wrote:Paul Franklin said in his last seminar that when he practiced scales that is what they sounded like when he played them, scales. I think most steel guitar playing is based around chords. A friend of mine was the music director for the US Navy band for 20 years. He plays jazz piano very well. He asked me if pentatonic scales were easy to play on the steel. He gave me a example of some outside notes that would work well aghnist a 7th chord. Example in F playing within a C7 (5dom 7)chord mixing in some Gb pentatonic notes for an outside effect. It is my opinion that simplyfing and using examples such as what I just mentioned may be one way to go.

It is not the scales themselves, but how you organize the information. Not every scale tone is played and often there are chromatic passing notes inserted. There are no rules, but I can assure you, scales play a major part in any improviser's language. The example you brought up could be easily explained using scales:

A Gb pentatonic (Gb Ab Bb Db Eb) is made up of all scale tones of the C Altered scale (C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb). Why not just call it what it is? Gb=b5, Ab=#5 Bb=b7 Db=b9 Eb=#9

Edited to add: You're right when you say most steel guitar playing is based around chords. I will agree with that. I think that to take improvisation to the next level, steel guitar players have to go farther, especially in playing Jazz. Like I said, using scales does not have to sound like scales--that is what it is in the hands of someone lacking experience and developed musicality.

Mike, don't worry about being a guitar player, I learned most of what I know about music from guitar players and piano players. Joe, I see what you mean. Joe, the problem I see is this; How many good old country songs have a chord progression that goes from Am to E or E 7th? By the time a chord progression went that direction a person would probably forget where to play that scale.
Maybe it is inteded as a passing type thing.

I agree with what you just said Mike. How you get there or what you want to call it I don't think means nearly as much as how you organize it in practice. Then just call on it mentally and put your own interpetation to it. I'll give you an example how I might think. Going to a 4 chord, I want some movement so I substitute a 6sus or 6dom 7 or both between the 4 (or 2m). I can do that several different ways either with chord inversions or single notes above or below my 4 chord position depending on which way I want to go afterwards. Once I've learned that I don't have to think of what I am playing I just know that it works.

W., music is definitely about motion. That's why I think it's important (at least for me) to understand Harmony and know why we use something like the Harmonic and Melodic Minor scales--because they create tension and resolution much better than a natural minor scale does.

Anyway, going to the IV chord is lots of fun. I like the typical vm7-I7-IV (in C--Gmi7-C7-F) and, even better, biim7-bV7-IV (Dbmi7-Gb7-F) (ala Wes Montgomery). Try it out (just don't do it in a country tune!)

I do the 5m-1dom9 to 4 all the time on C-6. Thanks I'll try the other. I wish there was more down in the trenches information like we are talking about that could be demonstrated directly to the steel guitar. Unfortunately that is know as a lesson and people want to get paid for that. Not to mention all of the different tunings people have. Not nearly as standard as a 6 string guitar. Its a real trick to gleen something out of all the information available and use what works on the steel guitar.I like it where you figure something out that is vertually impossable to do the same way on a regular guitar. You know that 6sus on C-6 is right at the 5 open position without the 5th pedal down so it is actually only a whole step up from the 2m/4 chord simply press the 5th pedal and you've turned it into a 6 dom7 chord. So simple rediculous.

I was hoping to put a little video example together, but I ran out of time last night. Maybe in the next few days.

I can see when we talk about this stuff that a lot of folks lose interest. Sometimes when I read posts on theory my eyes glaze over, too, because sometimes it's difficult to put things into words. Like dancing about architecture. It really is fascinating and practical info, you're gonna have to trust me.

This is where I wish someone like Franklin would chime in, because I know he is hip to all of it.

Paul is hip to all of it but the first guy who puts together the video tutorial will take home the prize...

You know, Mike, I see it a little differently.

A guy asks a question that involves music theory, the question gets answered several ways, very clearly, I think. My next move at that point would be to go over to the instrument and apply the information and hear it for myself, in context. Others choose to use the information as a springboard for "theory is just a bunch of words", which is true, unless you sit down at the axe and apply it to music. I love music theory, particularly as an efficient means of communicating musical concepts in macro form. Not everyone is interested, but to imply that theoretical knowledge of music is somehow undesirable or distracting is to miss out on the immediate, practical value of the information.

That being said, Jim has it right - and I bet you'll get the prize!

Christopher Woitach wrote:You know, Mike, I see it a little differently.

A guy asks a question that involves music theory, the question gets answered several ways, very clearly, I think. My next move at that point would be to go over to the instrument and apply the information and hear it for myself, in context. Others choose to use the information as a springboard for "theory is just a bunch of words", which is true, unless you sit down at the axe and apply it to music. I love music theory, particularly as an efficient means of communicating musical concepts in macro form. Not everyone is interested, but to imply that theoretical knowledge of music is somehow undesirable or distracting is to miss out on the immediate, practical value of the information.

That being said, Jim has it right - and I bet you'll get the prize!

Christopher, I don't actually feel that theoretical knowledge of music is distracting or undesirable--in fact, without it, I don't know how I would have survived, it's that important to me.

Anyway, knowledge and practical application of it give you the power to make those hairpin turns and go into territory you didn't think possible. The most alluring gift of a great musician is the unpredictability of what they play. People like surprises.

Mike

I wasn't implying that you felt that way - you clearly are both interested and informed. In fact, your posts on this subject are terrific - please keep it up! I was responding to your comment about people losing interest, etc., and noticing the way that theory posts are often responded to here.

Mike! Your gonna catch some heck after one of these folks here try that stuff over "Mansion On the Hill" at the next Steel Guitar Association jam

I'll throw in my 2 cents. When I'm explaining a new harmonic idiom to one of my jazz guitar students, I've found that contextualization is essential. Simply put, without a concrete example of a (particular place in a) tune where this stuff can be used, these unfamiliar scales often turn into, and remain, a scale exercise. So, here are a couple of places to use melodic minor harmony.

1. "The Days of Wine and Roses" is usually played in F major, and the chord in the second measure is an Eb7, spelled Eb-G-Bb-Db. The Aebersold knee-jerk is to play Eb mixolydian, Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-Db, but the melody (and the key signature) contains an A natural. Factor this into your scale choice and it yields Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-Db, a Mixo. scale with a raised 4th, which is the fourth mode of Bb mel. minor. In fact, this type of harmony, a bVII7 chord following a I maj 7 chord, usually demands mel. minor because of the strength of the 3rd in your I chord (which becomes the raised fourth in your bVII7 chord). Check out Bill Evans' version of the tune to hear this sound in action.

2. Billy Strayhorn's tune "Chelsea Bridge." The first two chords are minor chords with a natural seventh, which calls for your standard melodic minor scale. Plus it's a ballad, which gives you some time to really allow your ear to hear the effect of the mel. minor harmony. Check out Joe Henderson's beautiful version of this one. Also, "Nica's Dream" by Horace Silver starts with the same progression, but that tune's pretty difficult.

Also, if you know about tritone substitutions and backdoor ii-V's, they're perfect for the mixolydian w/ a raised 4th mentioned above.