The Steel Guitar Forum

Frederick Hogaboom wrote:I gravitated to bluegrass.

So did Ricky Skaggs.

Maybe Vince should too, and form "Oklahoma City Thunder." Can Brad Paisley on the mandolin be far behind?

Vince and Ricky, etc. brought bluegrass to country.

Mr. McCloskey, I doubt you even play steel guitar. We got a Troll here fellas.

i think some folks have your Vince background backwards -I'm no fanboy - but he put in his dues playing with the Pure Prairie League - then YEARS of Bluegrass from the mid-70's up til the late 80's when he got signed. And the guy is the real deal - he's a musicians musician, yeah, his songs might be adult syrupy but he can go anyway he wants - he can croon with the best of them, and outplay the rest - probably one of the best frontmen i've ever seen - if you see him live, its just like a small house concert atmosphere, he jokes, picks on, and everyone has a good time. I always considered him the country version of Eric Clapton.

these yahoos today - i dont know where they get them from - they come outta nowhere - they must find them on youtube, or modeling agencies, they never come from gigging bands.

kevin and jerome...i'm with you. vince is a picker-singer-writer-person of the highest calbre. i can't find a flaw. mr. mcclosky states that he doesn't like country music, which is interesting considering this is a steel guitar forum, so i'm not concerened with what he has to say regarding vince. vince gill is a beautiful soul, i can't say the same for bill m. as i don't know him aside from his strange posts.

Frank Freniere wrote:

Frederick Hogaboom wrote:I gravitated to bluegrass.

So did Ricky Skaggs.

Maybe Vince should too, and form "Oklahoma City Thunder." Can Brad Paisley on the mandolin be far behind?

Funny you should mention that. From The Tennessean:

Starting in June, Vince Gill is going bluegrass — at least for 12 cities.

He revealed plans last week for a bluegrass tour, a series of acoustic shows with Gill backed by some of the genre’s most known musicians, including Stuart Duncan, Jeff White, Jim Mills and Dennis Crouch.

“After the passing of Earl Scruggs, it means the world to me to do these dates with this world-class band playing the music that Earl defined,” Gills says of the bluegrass legend who died March 28 at age 88.

Gill is set to release a new album this fall with acoustic group The Time Jumpers, but in the meantime, fans can catch Gill when he brings his bluegrass tour to Nashville’s Ryman Auditorium on June 21.

— Cindy Watts

I guess Cindy Watts hasn't seen The Timejumpers play? Yeah, there are some acoustic instruments on board but I'd hardly categorize them as an "acoustic group."

He is absolutely right about the devaluation of music. The good times are long gone in the music business with regard to getting nouveau-rich. The upside is that you will see more people making music purely for the love of it once all the posers realize there's nothing to be made and they move on to infomercials or whatever.

The Internet turned the old record company model upside down. For all its faults, this old model at least served as somewhat of a sentry to keep the real junk in check. Now it's mayhem that anyone can make a record. And musicians are selling themselves like prostitutes just to get a break, schlepping themselves on social media like desperate salespeople. It's a mess, and Vince is speaking up about it thankfully. Even if there's nothing to be done, it's still good to have an articulate spokesman point it out.

I think reading this there are two comments I would like to add. With the diversity of the audience out there, the people who buy records have not had the life experiences someone the same age as Vince Gill has. That is not good or bad, it just is.
I also think with the advent of the internet, things like you tube and Skype there are a lot more people who can learn and get instruction. Just look at American Idol, and the talent that is there. It is not that i there was not a lot of talent in 1949, there just were not the options there is today. I have been wanting to learn the PSG for many years, but it wasn't available for me until now. Many reasons.
Bottom line, music as we know it has changed and continues to change. I think the future is exciting for all musicians, and there will be more with better education and from different backgrounds. So yes it is not what it was, and it never will be again, so enjoy what it is.

Chris LeDrew wrote:The Internet turned the old record company model upside down. For all its faults, this old model at least served as somewhat of a sentry to keep the real junk in check. Now it's mayhem that anyone can make a record.

What? I've got news for you pal... nothing has changed. There was real junk back then just like there is real junk now. Sure, recording is more affordable nowadays, but the odds of becoming a star are no greater than they were in the 'grand old days' of vinyl records and multimillion dollar analog recording studios.

Leslie,

So the market has always been flooded to the extent it is today with the Internet? Please elaborate that point further.

Yes I'm familiar with the "junk then, junk now" point. It's been beaten to death here. Try to explain to me how in the '60s there was an outlet similar to YouTube where everyone with a video camera and a pipe dream could showcase to millions, right alongside the biggest and brightest we have. It's a tsunami out there now, with a lot more junk floating around than ever before.

Before cheap recording became available, you needed someone to sign off on your recording because it cost serious money to record. Yes there was still junk. The top 40 has always been about the lowest common denominator to a certain extent. But for you to suggest that things have always been as dismal in the music business as they are today is preposterous.

(Not a steel player opinion)

VG simply said, refreshingly, what many of us have been saying for several years. Music in general, country specifically, has been watered down in content and value as to have almost turned its back on where it came from and who brought it here to begin with. I am not a fan of 'new' country or alt stuff -at all - and frankly despise most of what I've heard (and the little I've played).

Its as if the powers that be are driving out the old with some sort of agenda, attempting to equate 2 steps, dance music, cowboy songs, etc, with horse and buggies, Jim Crow, slavery, and everything else seen as a negative in our past. But (and I believe this to be the point of VG's rant), when music carries the same economic value as a phone app that makes fart noises, something is very very wrong.

Sustained artists have been shuffled off major labels for years now, either by choice or by railroad...ever wonder why that is? Seems small labels such as Heart of Texas, et al, are the only outlets for what most of us call country anymore. In the meantime, we'll keep playing the dancehalls until there's no one left or we just can't afford it anymore.

BTW - this is not the 1st time it's happened, but it IS the worst I've seen. Crossover is fine, but I'm losing hope that a monster shift back to the country side is gonna happen anytime soon - hope it happens before I get too old to gig.

mr. mcclosky states that he doesn't like country music, which is interesting considering this is a steel guitar forum

This is the 'steel guitar forum', not the 'country music pedal steel guitar forum'. You and I both obviously love pedal steel guitar oriented country music, but there are plenty of people here who don't. I don't think we should make this into a personal thing. Bill is a good guy, he just views the music biz through a different lens (as I think most people do). We should be able to talk about those differences without getting personal.

In terms of broadcast music, Vince's comments speak to me also. I think most stuff on the radio airwaves, country or otherwise, is trivial to the point of absurdity. I do agree that there have always been large amounts of schlock on the radio, but it just seems to me that it's about impossible to find anything I want to hear there, and I stopped listening a very long time ago.

But on the other hand, there is more great music out in the greater world than I will ever have time to listen to, and that includes lots of great new music. It doesn't really bother me that the radio is a dead end. Does it bother you that AM radio is basically a wasteland of talk-radio? Not me. FM now is (mostly - there are exceptions) a wasteland of so-called music. So what?

A lot has been made of the ease of recording. OK, there's more garbage, but there's also more great stuff - no not in big-media distribution. But that doesn't bother me either - myself, I haven't cared about 'corporate music' for a long time. So nobody's gonna get rich overnight from the music I'm interested in. Overall, I think this is a good thing - anybody can put their stuff out, and if you really want to put it to the masses, go out on the road and slog it out. No instant gratification and overnight sensations if you want to do it 'your way'. Musicians need to stop expecting other people to make them stars. You got something to say? You can say it. What's the beef?

At a higher level, this is about the ease of purveying any information, not just music. The critical skill is learning to filter out the crap. Make the distinction between 'data' and 'information'. Data is just the raw stuff - it comes down to bits and bytes. Information is the useful stuff. Everybody has to decide what's useful for themselves. To avoid getting completely overwhelmed, you need to develop that decision-making skill specifically.

My take.

Dave Mudgett wrote: Everybody has to decide what's useful for themselves. To avoid getting completely overwhelmed, you need to develop that decision-making skill specifically.

Great point, and I think this touches on the larger issue of where the average person's head is it in the social climate of the internet. Attention spans have taken a beating in the past ten years, where everything is whittled down to 140 characters and delivered at high-speed. Even as a college English instructor I find it hard to read a novel or textbook anymore, with forums such as this one making the little information snippet an attractive alternative. Any type of critical thinking skill is a challenge these days to both teach and implement.

Another point to remember now is that no one needs to wait for music anymore. You want to hear a particular song? Any particular song? Punch it into the youtube search function. There it is. The mystery of music is gone. The anticipation used to be part of the experience. Even the mystery of the musician has taken a beating. Your heroes, who used to have a bit of mystery to them, are now on Twitter begging you to buy their album and come see their show. The whole model has been totally reversed. I'm sure musicians trying to succeed in the climate will take this model and maximize it to its fullest extent, which is great. But personally I had to retreat from solely pursuing music as a career once the internet kicked in. Before that, I felt I had a shot as a songwriter. Now I just don't have the wherewithal to sift through the debris.

All of this talk about a musician having to be everything these days...that's fine if you want to be a businessman 90% of the time and a musician 10% of the time, but it's not for me.

Back in the sixties, when in my teens I bought every single record by the Byrds. I went to any local record store everyday and asked them if it had already arrived. Those were very romantic days in hinsight.
In the early eighties, somehow I got hold of the five track album by Vince Gill that had "Victim Of Life's Circumstances" on it. I've waited a few years and bought another album by him and then a few years more 'til I got the next, no continuity!
I think that older record buyers aren't devoted to one artist anymore like they were in their teens. That's why sales drop for many established artists too.

I like Vince's material. I love him being able to play it all. I really loved the special with he and STING! Not so much bluegrass, unless it has steel!
Afterall, everything is better with it!!!!!!

Chris LeDrew, your analysis is right on. There is a PUROSEFUL cultural genocide war being waged by N.Y. and Hollywood against traditional country music. These people hate country music and the southern culture that goes with it. They are doing it through CMT and the CMA. They control all the radio content of what is being played on all of these "New Country" radio stations. Drive into any city and you will hear the same non country rock songs being played over, and over again. What they are starting to understand is that it won't work, and that it's failing. People aren't buying the empty soul less music. I'm buying my Vince Gill ticket. Fiddles and steel guitars rule.

Kevin it also seems as if the businessmen running country music are more hell-bent on mixing genres to maximize profit than ever. This mixing of genres only works when it happens naturally. Trying to marry Hollywood with Nashville has been a failed endeavor at best. The cringe factor is high when the country music awards are held in Hollywood.

The mixing genres have been going on for along time. If it works, more power to them.

A natural, organic mix is tasty; a processed, contrived mix not so much.

Chris LeDrew wrote:So the market has always been flooded to the extent it is today with the Internet?

So what you miss are the gatekeepers (commercial radio, network broadcast TV, and major record labels) that supposedly kept the 'junk' out.

Chris LeDrew wrote:Before cheap recording became available, you needed someone to sign off on your recording because it cost serious money to record.

If you wanted to become a star, yes. But there were lots of bands and singers who made records without being signed to a major label.

Kevin Hatton wrote:There is a PUROSEFUL cultural genocide war being waged by N.Y. and Hollywood against traditional country music.

Kevin, I used to say the same thing about what has been happening to rock music since the late 1970s, but now I'm too old and out of touch with what is going on in the music business.


For those of you who lament the passing of the 'good old days', let me say this: we should celebrate the time we live in - new technologies allow everyone to be exposed to a dizzying array of choices of music to listen to, traditional or modern. I don't miss the days of top 40 AM radio and over the air network broadcast television. Back in those days you took what they gave you and that was it.

Chris LeDrew wrote:So the market has always been flooded to the extent it is today with the Internet?

So what you miss are the gatekeepers (commercial radio, network broadcast TV, and major record labels) that supposedly kept the 'junk' out.

Chris LeDrew wrote:Before cheap recording became available, you needed someone to sign off on your recording because it cost serious money to record.

If you wanted to become a star, yes. But there were lots of bands and singers who made records without being signed to a major label.

Kevin Hatton wrote:There is a PUROSEFUL cultural genocide war being waged by N.Y. and Hollywood against traditional country music.

Kevin, I used to say the same thing about what has been happening to rock music since the late 1970s, but now I'm too old and out of touch with what is going on in the music business.


For those of you who lament the passing of the 'good old days', let me say this: we should celebrate the time we live in - new technologies allow everyone to be exposed to a dizzying array of choices of music to listen to, traditional or modern. I don't miss the days of top 40 AM radio and over the air network broadcast television. Back in those days you took what they gave you and that was it.

Afterall, everything is better with it!!!!!!

Theresa:
Me thinks you could be a bit biased, but with very good cause!

i miss the good old method when a packet of cocaine in the album sleeve would get the dj to give some airplay.

for that matter, i miss the dj who would announce the song and artist...and actually have a say so in what got played. now you never hear on the radio who's song played or what it was titled.
everything is total programming by an unknown entity.

Graham,
So true!

"New Country" makes a lot of money.It's a commercial product,designed,created,and marketed to make money.It's aimed at young people,who want to see other young people making "their" music.It's been that way ever since pop music began to make money,but it's basically young people who are the cash cow for commercial pop music,so when a young star isn't so young anymore,he stops being a star and gives way to the next young star.Glenn Campbell and Roy Clark gave way to Vince.Now Vince is giving way to Brad Paisley and Keith Urban.Tammy Wynette gives way to Emmylou gives way to Wynonna Judd gives way to Taylor Swift.

IMO it's primarily in the niche markets where an artist has longevity.Think Earl Scruggs,Ernest Tubb,Doc Watson,maybe Merle Haggard and Conway Twitty.Perhaps country players should do things to offend the mainstream so Joni Mitchell's "starmaker machinery" will leave this genre alone.