The Steel Guitar Forum

@Clete, old habits are not soon forgotten; I guess on peoal Steel you have to think a little differently. Definitely not the same "Beast". @ Stuart, all input is welcome, I kind of sort for myself anyway, you may have the "magic" word. Who knows? Thanks to all...........This is a great Forum.

Ray Anderson wrote:My quarry here is this,if I were to see i.e. G#M on a sheet of music, I want to know where to find it without thinking too long.I want to be able to associate the fret position for these minors.I neef to be able to find them on the fly. G#m is on B with the A pedal (correct me if I'm wrong on that). Whilt in that position I released the A pedal and lowered the Es, I was wondering what chord would that be and is that a whole new lesson of finding chords ( with the Es lowered) I guess my first post was misleading to some and for that I appologize. Your help is appreciated. I could not learn if it were not for this Forum.

Dick Sexton gave you the positions, here's my simplified version for on the fly:

On the standard grip (strings 3,4,5,6,8,10), there are 3 inversions of major chords: open, A&B pedals, A pedal and E-F raise KL. There are 3 inversions of minor chords: B&C pedals*, A pedal, E-D# lower KL.

The relation between them is this -- using G# as a root, since you asked:

Major open: 4th fret. Minor: B&C pedals, 2 frets back, ie 2nd fret

Major A&B pedals: 11th fret. Minor: E-D# lower one fret up i.e, 12th fret

Major A pedal, E-F raise KL: 7th fret. Minor: A pedal only, same fret.


The relation between major and minor with same root, e.g G# major and G# minor, is called parallel -- G# minor is the parallel minor to G# major. Relative major and minor is a different thing.

*for the B&C pedal minor, don't play the 8th string, that's the one exception to what I said about the 'standard grip'. You can play the 7th string instead.

Jack Willis wrote:I am beginning to work on a few Neil Young songs. I am running into some Am7 and Em7 chords. The Am7 works out to be A-C-E-G. I think I found it at 8 fret with A pedal strings 6,5,4 and 1 (I am not sitting at my guitar at the moment so this is 62 year old recall.) I guess my overall question is where are the minor 7th's.

You'll note that the top three notes of the Am7 are a C maj triad. If the bass is playing A and you play C maj you will have the Am7 sound. You can play nice moving stuff between Am triad and C maj triad over the A bass to flesh out the minor 7th sound. At the 8th fret, that would be playing open and with A pedal (with A pedal down, strings 10 and 5 are the root of the chord, A; open, strings 10 and 5 are the 7th, G).

One convenient voicing of a minor seventh is with A&B pedals down & play the root on the 7th string, which you'll find 2 frets down from open parallel major. So A maj is at the 5th fret. 2 frets down, A&B pedals down (which would be C maj), play the 7th string and the rest of the standard grip, you've got Am7.

This has all been said, but this is my take.
The relative minor vs. turning a major chord into a minor chord (eg; Amaj. to Amin.) When in no pedals-open position the relative minor (6th) can be done on the same fret with A pedal, or going to the IVth postion (open no pedals) with E lever, or Vth postion with B&C pedals. When in A&B pedals down postion, press B&C pedals, or go down two frets (IVth position) with E lever and no pedals. To turn a major chord into a minor chord in open-no pedals postion, drop down two frets and hit B&C pedals. In A&B pedals down position, move up one fret and use E lever and no pedals. There are way more ways to do it, but this can get you started.

Hey Jim, Now that's what I'm talking about, I surely can relate that to memory. Dick is a great help to us Noobies and I appreciate his input. I think that suggestion/method you posted, nailed it for me. I do so appreciate it. Keep Steelin'

To Dick Sexton,

Your tab is incorrect. First you list a C major scale.
Tones being C, D, E, F, G, A, B

But you are using an A Flat note in your diminished chord. The C Harmonized scale uses only the C scale tones to create the chords...joe

Hello All,

I have a DVD entitled 'Key of C DVD#1" and it goes into all of the "where" things are located. Of course there are a lot of videos, courses and such that show you "what" to play. The key is HOW to play it.

Got tab you can't play?? Tab is the what. There is no how in tab.

As far as a C harmonized scale here's a pdf I put together of different locations. Learn everything in one key and then transpose.

http://www.pedalsteel.com/cscalelegal.pdf

This pdf shows them all over the neck. But you need to realize that every note that is played on the pdf is a C, D, E, F, G, A or B.

later...joe
www.pedalsteel.com

if the song is in G and you go to an Em , you can play D scales all over the place and it sounds really good, touching back to an E every now and then. i dont know the technical relationship playing a D scale over an Em, but im sure its called something.

Thank you Joe...

Tony Williamson wrote:...i dont know the technical relationship playing a D scale over an Em, but im sure its called something.

Em is the relative minor of G major in this case. The only difference between the G major scale and the D major scale is that C is raised to C# from the G scale in the D scale. This is the Lydian mode of G. The Lydian scale is a major scale with the fourth scale degree raised a semitone.

Clete

i love weird scales and notes played over chords or bass lines not commonly done,like a D scale over Em chord, or an B triad ove an E7 ( flat 7). or maybe a descending 3rd over the same root chord. wish i had a little formal training. but i know all these chords and scales and their relationships. im just a little short on names.

Tony,
Me too! I am a play-by-ear player largely. I can approach things analytically as in the previous post, but I often need to look up the terms first. Theory only helps if you can apply it in practice musically. It really doesnt matter if you know the names of the modes etc. as long as you hear the differences. I guess this might be called applied theory, haha.

Clete

The D major scale against the E is the Dorian mode.

D E F# G A B C#

Looking at it using E as tonic gives you the minor flavor.

E F# G A B C# D

Later...joe

joe wright wrote:The D major scale against the E is the Dorian mode.

D E F# G A B C#

Looking at it using E as tonic gives you the minor flavor.

E F# G A B C# D

Later...joe

Right; Dorian mode is the white keys on the piano in the key of D. It's very common in American popular music. Think of playing open strings on E9 in the key of F#.

Oops my mistake! I was thinking in terms of G not Em, sorry. The D major scale starting at G is the Lydian mode. D major starting at E is the Dorian mode. Thanks Joe for the correction!

Clete

Joe I think it obvious your DVD advertise here would have been excepted as a good thing with or without your knocking tab or people who write it.
I’m sure that no person who writes tab would expect you to learn music theory from a song in sheet music or tab.
I’m sure no person who writes tab would expect you to learn music theory without a lot of “monkey see monkey do” and/or a great deal of written instruction included.
It seems that tab is expected to teach you about theory in every instance then criticized because it fails to meet that ridicules expectation.

I highly recommend Joe Wrights teaching materials. They are practical and once you get the idea he is putting out on any subject you will truly understand both the why and the how of it. It takes practicing but really works. When I was first playing Joe opened some big doors for me. In my opinion his teaching system is as focused and developed as classical conservatory training. I was going to a conservatory when I first ran into Joe as a matter of fact. That key of C DVD of his will make finding minor chords and connections easy and obvious. Once you get the basic idea you will see minor chords everywhere you see major chords.

Joe gives skype lessons too !

I took the liberty of going to the Sierra site and watched one of Joe's free video lessons and I must say that had I found such instruction a year and half back, I would be leaps and bounds ahead of my present state. That is without doubt some of the finest I've seen ( and I have reviewed aplenty). It is well worth the effort of anyone that is wanting to learn this instument. Thank you Joe Wright, now I know which direction I want to take.

i was thinking tony rice....

Hey Neighbor, Who is Tony Rice? Does he have a website?

joe wright wrote:To Dick Sexton,

Your tab is incorrect. First you list a C major scale.
Tones being C, D, E, F, G, A, B

But you are using an A Flat note in your diminished chord. The C Harmonized scale uses only the C scale tones to create the chords...joe

I don't see this, someone's going to have to 'splain it to me.

Below I show what Dick Sexton posted. The dim chord is the chord based on the 7th tone, found 2 frets back from "no pedals" for the root position with the E's raised. So at fret 6 you have the dim chord on strings 3-4-5, or 4-5-6 as Dick shows, with the "F" lever (E's raised). Two frets back from "no pedals", this gives you the chordal tones (based on root) as follows: 7th tone (str. 4F), 2nd (str. 3 or 6), and the 4th (str. 5). Those give you a minor-flat-5 triad (= a dimished chord), using only the notes from the C scale, or B-D-F.

Now of course if you slide it up 3 frets to another inversion, then B-D-F becomes D-F-Ab, and there's that flat 6th (in C), the A-flat, that Joe mentions. At this point it's a B diminished 7th without the root (or Dminor-flat 5...or F dimished 7th without the 5th, etc etc)....I understand that, but at fret 6, it's all C-scale tones.

What am I missing here??



Pedals Down C
1.__________________________________________________
2.__________________________________________________
3._______________________________1___________3B_____
4._____________________1____3____1E____6F____3______
5._________1A____3A____1____3____1_____6_____3A_____
6.___3B____1_____3_____1____3__________6____________
7.__________________________________________________
8.___3_____1_____3__________________________________
9.__________________________________________________
10.__3A_____________________________________________


No Pedals C
1.__________________________________________________
2.__________________________________________________
3.______________________________________6_____8_____
4.________________________________8_____6F____8_____
5.________6_____8____8A____10A____8A____6_____8_____
6.___8____6_____8____8B____10B____8_________________
7.__________________________________________________
8.___8____6E____8E___8_____10_______________________
9.__________________________________________________
10.__8______________________________________________

John Peay wrote:...if you slide it up 3 frets to another inversion, then B-D-F becomes D-F-Ab...it's all C-scale tones.
...What am I missing here??...

John,
The diminished triad is only three notes. When you expand the diminished chord to four scale tones, the natural diminished 7th chord produced (called a half-diminished 7th) contains only notes in the C scale (B D F A).

Sliding a diminished triad up three frets for an inversion is actually a whole diminished 7th inversion, which contains the Ab, a note not in the C scale. Ab is not in the scale but is in the inversion of the triad. Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Clete