The Steel Guitar Forum

They may well share the same DNA, but....it's
mitochondrial

Rick

I have for a long time really dis-liked the term "slide" guitar... (because "REAL" steel guitar players mostly use a bar, not a hollow tube)

But sometimes a glass, ceramic, phenolic or whatever bar is used, so why do we still call it a steel? Maybe it should be called a BAR Guitar?

And truth be told, we do often slide from note to note giving our instrument it's famous sound.

SO: I am making the consious decision to tone down my hatred for the term "Slide Guitar"... in fact
Recently at a recording session I was asked by the producer to play my telecaster, sitting on my lap, with a hollow slide. (Because he wanted a more sloppy, buzzy fretted sound rather than the pure steel guitar sound!) Go Figure?

Also I am pretty sure most standard guitarists are always going to relate to our instrument as a "slide" guitar, just because of where they are coming from on a fretted instrument.

Dom

John,
No, I'd say it's just the opposite.
The smoother the bar, the less friction and wear on the strings.

While barely "old enough", I recognize the terminology from an era where there were two types of guitar playing: "Spanish" (where one stops a string by pressing a string[s] onto a fretted neck), and "Hawaiian" (where one stops a string[s] with a bar). The major difference (according to most guitar manufacturers of the day) is Spanish has the strings low to the frets, a compensated bridge saddle, and is intended to be played with the guitar body verical, against the players torso. Hawaiian has the strings raised high over the frets a straight saddle and is intended to be played with the guitar horizontal, flat on one's lap (leave Thumbs Carlisle out of this!)

I think we all know what the damn things are called; it's the civilians who haven't a clue. I was called by a band looking for a replacement for their "pedal steel" player. I listened to their material and it was immediately obvious to me that their steelist was playing non- pedal steel. They didn't know. I very implicitly informed them that there was no pedal steel on their recordings and I could cover the gig. Several times throughout the night I was introduced by the singer as "...and on pedal steel, Jon Ross". Oy!! They still call my eight-string D-8 a PSG. I give up!

My two pet peeves: 1) Lap steel, referred to as a "Laptop steel", and 2) a National resophonic Spanish-style guitar referred to as a "National steel" (aren't most of 'em made of brass??!? A "National Steel" is a lap or legged steel). As for "silde guitar", I simply do not employ or recognize the term. Anything played Hawaiian style is STEEL GUITAR, any Spanish style guitar played employing a metal or glass hollow cylinder on a finger to stop a string is BOTTLENECK GUITAR. Thank you, I am done now!

When I hear a song and there's a guiter being played with a bar, tube or whatever and I can't exactly identify what it is I call it "slide guitar."

I've heard electric lap steelers mimic bottleneck and pedal steelers play in a non-pedal sytyle so in those cases the word "slide" becomes my generic default. In my opinion it's all slide in one form or another. Just for the record though I refer to MY electric non-pedal guitars as "lap steel" and my acoustics as "acoustic lap steel."

I don't agree that we all know what to call them and that's why this subject keeps coming up. Yeah, it would be nice if we could all agree on a standard name but it's not going to happen. Hawaiian players will always want to call it "Hawaiian" etc, plus there are so many other terms associated with the non-pedal steel guitar such as: Steel, non-pedal, slide, lap steel, Hawaiin, square neck, console, hollow neck, Weissenborn, Dobro, etc, etc.

Many variations and all very cool it but can be confusing especially to a non-player.

"...confusing especially to a non-player."


Precisely.

A rose by any other name smells as sweet.

Jon A. Ross wrote:"...confusing especially to a non-player."


Precisely.

Who cares?

Michael Nemick wrote:

Jon A. Ross wrote:"...confusing especially to a non-player."


Precisely.

Who cares?

It appears you have answered your own question!

Yup, as I get "older" I find myself doing that a lot. Also walking around the house saying, Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? hehe I was just thinking of one of my HD shirts that says "If I Have to Explain You Wouldn't Understand" I envision a shirt with ALL the "steels" on it and that quip.

I primarily play with large delrin and molybdenum-filled nylon, and glass and crystal bars. I haven't let it interfere with my smart-assed steeler's soul, tho.

Herb Steiner wrote: "Steel guitar" encompasses everything from 6 strings stretched across an unfinished board to 24-string D-12s with mega-pedals/levers and 14-string single necks with the same number of appendages. Simply, the instrument has evolved to the point where more qualifiers are needed to clarify just what instrument to which the speaker is referring.

I'm with Herb. Years ago (Fairbanks, AK 1974) when I was getting started I played some gigs on psg with bandleader Bill Jourdan on bass. He had lots of wild stories about his career in music including his time with the Miller Brothers band when he played what he referred to as straight steel. That term stuck with me and that's what I like to call it when I play my Fender Custom T8. Anybody remember Bill or can identify the steel he is playing in this old picture of the Miller Bros Band?

It's Pedal Steel for sure. Kinda like Cheese Burger. NOT burger w/cheese. Unless the cheese is on the side. Incidently, I am working on a new invention, essentially it's a removable linkage that will use the energy of the pedal pushing process to operate other machinery, much like the old Model T engine was usd to power farm equiptment. The idea is, as I mash the pedals, I'll use that energy to, you guessed it, mash potatoes! And I plan on using all hardware store parts so as not to allow for any monopoly or cartels to limit it's free use by the masses. I'll post pictures soon as I get it up and running.

I believe it's a triple neck National of some sort.

There are different types of steel guitars. They're all steel guitars, and correctly described as such. If you prefer to simply use that term, you are obviously free to do that.

But other people (me included) think there are times where it's important, as a practical matter of clear communication, to distinguish between them. The idea that there is no significant difference between a National steel guitar, Dobro, or other resonator guitar; a lap/console steel without pedals; and a pedal steel is simply fallacious. Each has developed its own distinct playing approaches, points of historical significance, and cultures.

As far as confusion to a non-player goes - I think it's more confusing to be less specific. How on earth does semantic ambiguity resolve actual ambiguity? In addition, being specific frequently creates a 'teaching opportunity' - you say, "pedal steel guitar", people ask, "What do the pedals do?", and you can explain the distinctions, and so on with the other types.

So I guess I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Do you think there is a problem when other people make a distinction between different types of steel guitars? Again, each of us is free to handle this how we see fit, and we cannot control how other people use language.

Dave, when someone comes up to me and asks, "what is that you're playing?", my answer is always "steel guitar." I don't like to elaborate much on it, unless they say "pedal steel" and I'll just say there are no pedals. I'll admit, I'm not real big on the chit chat on my breaks--probably not a very good ambassador.

I still refer to it as lap steel, straight steel or non-pedal, and that's not going to change.

Hi Greg. I don't recall what brand steel Bill played it has been so long. For any one intersted the band left to right, Bill Jordan (steel),Billy Thompson,Leon Gibbs,Dutch Ingram,Jerry Byler,Sam Gibbs,Don't recall his name, Madge. There never was any one by the name of Miller in the band. Just went by the name Miller Bros. I took over steel after Bill left the band. Tracy

BTW. With or with out pedals it was just called a steel guitar back then.

Dave Mudgett wrote:I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Do you think there is a problem when other people make a distinction between different types of steel guitars?

To pinpoint, we here on the forum are taking STEEL GUITAR and convoluting the message. We have 3 basic camps, steel, pedal steel, and and accoustic. As is said, keep it simple, stupid. Should someone unfamiliar with steel basics incure, then it can be explained, but in-house we're veering off into sillyland and I would expect better of us who know better. Otherwise, how can the uninformed get the straight scoop if we can't put it out clearly? Comments in this thread show that even seasoned players are all over the map on it, and while the last 100 years has seen the steel called many things, it's not unreasonable to maintain guidelines that don't muddy the water.

One more thing. Back then any one looking for a (Steel Player) would ask if you used pedals? Tracy

Back then when one advertized for a steel player they would ask if you used pedals. Some bands did want a steel player who used pedals. The Miller Bros band didn't. Tracy

Tracy Sheehan wrote:Hi Greg. I don't recall what brand steel Bill played it has been so long. I took over steel after Bill left the band. BTW. With or with out pedals it was just called a steel guitar back then.

Thanks Tracy, I bet you have some great memories from those days. I think Bill called it straight steel in conversation with me looking back to differentiate it from my pedal steel, at the time I'm sure you are right that it was simply called a steel. I have only recently branched out from pedal steel and dobro to playing straight steel, but why would you call a multi-neck steel with legs that you play standing up or sitting a lap steel? To me that is confusing. I'm not wanting to argue the point, but when I hear or see the words lap steel I picture somebody sitting with a little fretless electric guitar on their lap. Sorry Ron,I don't mean to veer off into "sillyland" but I have been known to do so. lol

Mike - I'm not trying to tell you or anybody else how to describe anything. We each can call various types of steel guitars whatever we want, and in some contexts, there will be no confusion. I usually prefer to distinguish, because for me they're different entities and I have, over the years, played various types, including a National steel guitar in the usual blues context. When I say "steel guitar" in that crowd, the interpretation is likely to be very different than what I do most of the time now.

Ron - not exactly sure where you're going with that. Muddying up what? How does being more semantically specific to resolve potential ambiguity muddy anything up? For example, if you're implying that we ought to merge the Pedal Steel and Steel Without Pedals sections, I disagree. Each shares features, but there is considerable divergence at several levels - from the standpoint of playing approaches, historical usage, and culture (musical and otherwise). So I'm still not sure where you're going with this. Exactly what message(s) are being convolved?

As a new member but an old reader of this forum I'm facinated by the discussion on what to call what we are playing. I came to bottleneck (slide guitar here in the UK) 5 years ago after I had managed to remove three fingers in an industrial accident in 1994, left with thumb and first finger it was the only way I could still play 6 string. I came to lap steel after chatting to Bob Brozman about 3 years ago and my wife then bought me an ABM after overhearing our conversation. I have to use a glass slide on my thumb as I cannot physically hold a bar and mute behind the slide/bar/bottleneck (which is what it is, a Dunlop Pyrex). Bearing all this in mind I still can't believe you can have so much fun with a plank of wood, I don't particularly care what it's called, it's FUN! It's just a shame that no-one wants to hear slide or lap steel in Salisbury, UK.

On another tack, I'm sorry to hear about Andy's and Bill's recent accidents, if they would like to talk to someone who has experience of severe hand injury, I'd be more than happy to chat to you, PM or email me if it would help.
Chris.

Greg Booth wrote:

Tracy Sheehan wrote:Hi Greg. I don't recall what brand steel Bill played it has been so long. I took over steel after Bill left the band. BTW. With or with out pedals it was just called a steel guitar back then.

Thanks Tracy, I bet you have some great memories from those days. I think Bill called it straight steel in conversation with me looking back to differentiate it from my pedal steel, at the time I'm sure you are right that it was simply called a steel. I have only recently branched out from pedal steel and dobro to playing straight steel, but why would you call a multi-neck steel with legs that you play standing up or sitting a lap steel? To me that is confusing. I'm not wanting to argue the point, but when I hear or see the words lap steel I picture somebody sitting with a little fretless electric guitar on their lap. Sorry Ron,I don't mean to veer off into "sillyland" but I have been known to do so. lol

Back in the old days it was simply called a steel guitar If one played standing up ,sitting down with the steel in your lap it was still simply called a steel guitar. When i went with the miller Bros i had a fender 1000 with pedals. It was still called a steel guitar. I didn't use the pedals as they did not want the steel to sound any thing like country.
Think of it like this,if a horn player stands up or sits down and or uses a mute it is still a horn, trumpet or what ever. I also played fiddle and if i stood up,sit down or layed it in my lap it was still a fiddle.
IMO i believe that is what got the public confused because it did not matter if the steel had pedals or not. It was simply a steel and pedals meant nothing to them and still doesn't. Tracy

Conclusion: Some care about semantics and terminology and others do not. And they all lived happily ever after; the end!