This information is not being taught thru tablature.

[Donny Hinson]

While I understand the basics of intervals, I'll admit I'm a little ignorant and tend to get lost when they move into the upper tetrad...or below the lower tetrad. For instance: When is a 13th necessary? What notes are essential, and why? When a chart says "C maj add 2", can I put a D note (anywhere) below the root C note?

[Herb Steiner]

Donnie
A 13th chord is necessary when you want the 6th tone of the scale in the upper register as a chord or melody note, but with the tension inherent in a dominant chord, i.e. the presence of the flatted 7th, voiced lower in the chord stack. Often a major 6th chord is too sweet for the arrangement.

To me, the essential notes to play in a chord are the ones that determine the actual flavor of the chord, so I assume that the bass/piano will be playing root and 5th tones in the lower register. So my essential chord notes would be the 3rd tone (determining whether the chord is major/minor), the 7th (major or dominant), and the extended note or the altered note (9th, 11th, 13th, b9, et al.)

In the "add 2" chord, I wouldn't voice the D lower than the root tone. I'd play it as an add9, but without a 7th tone. Or maybe as a suspended chord, like C D G E as in an open voiced chord

[Christopher Woitach]

Right on Herb - not to get picky, but suspended means a 2nd or a 4th instead of a 3rd, not in addition to the 3rd (hence add9 or add2).

Using the kind of rootless voicings you describe is incredibly sensible, and opens up the sound beautifully. It also makes it a lot easier to find voicings all over the neck.

[James Mayer]

If you want to understand theory, you need to be able to read music.

This is simply not true. Intervals are dead simple to learn for anyone, not just readers of standard notation. I memorized my fretboard (guitar), learned intervals, scales, modes, chord construction, etc without reading music. I know quite a few musicians who know a lot more theory than I do and read even less than I do (I learned a bit of reading AFTER learning the basics of music theory).

I'm just pointing this out because someone who wants to learn theory might get discouraged if they think they need to learn to read first.

[Richard Sinkler]

I agree with James. Reading is only one aspect of music theory. I am fairly decent with the theory, but can't read music real well.

[Mark van Allen]

Yeah, Mike P., I'm not sure where you're coming from on that one. The fundamentals of theory are completely separate concepts from the notation used to explain or explore those concepts. Standard notation or "music reading" is a concise way of writing down the concepts, but absolutely not necessary for understanding or integrating those concepts into one's playing. Just as easy to approach the whole thing from the number system perspective, and it's actually more in line with how we hear in a playing situation.
Yes, performance of a written piece of music requires reading (and the requisite translation of the written notes through the brain and into performance), but nearly all of the other playing in our world occurs without sheet music or written notes being involved.
I've built my E9 theory courses around the idea of learning the way we play... in our minds and on the guitar!

[Herb Steiner]

If you want to understand theory, you need to be able to read music.

This is simply not true. Intervals are dead simple to learn for anyone, not just readers of standard notation. I memorized my fretboard (guitar), learned intervals, scales, modes, chord construction, etc without reading music. I know quite a few musicians who know a lot more theory than I do and read even less than I do (I learned a bit of reading AFTER learning the basics of music theory).

I'm just pointing this out because someone who wants to learn theory might get discouraged if they think they need to learn to read first.

James speaks the truth. You only need to learn to count. I learned most all of my intellectual knowledge of note and chord relationships before I gained what minimal... and I stress very miminal... reading skills I now possess.

[Mark van Allen]

Also, "reliance on tab" is another subject altogether.

While I agree that for me, reading standard notation is a very useful skill, (I've played many theater dates that would have been near impossible without it, and there are many notated bits, like trombone solos, that are great to steal licks and ideas from) in reading forum posts and talking with students for many years it's really obvious that many people don't read, don't want to to learn, and are thereby discouraged when told they must read to be competent players.

Many of the true greats of steel guitar, trend setters and icons, could not read notation.

My point is that knowledge of music theory is a real shortcut to attaining competency and mastery, that all good players use theory (whether they know it or not!) and whether they read or not... and that we should be encouraging the study and application of theory to our playing outside of and apart from any study of written notation.

[Herb Steiner]

Many of the true greats of steel guitar, trend setters and icons, could not read notation.

Like Joaquin Murphey, Speedy West, Jimmy Day, and Buddy (though he ultimately did learn for survival in the studio world).

My point is that knowledge of music theory is a real shortcut to attaining competency and mastery, that all good players use theory (whether they know it or not!) and whether they read or not... .

Imagine someone functionally illiterate, but with the intelligence over the years to have acquired vocabulary, syntax, and grammar verbally and through osmosis and life experience. To the point that they can carry on intricate, involved conversations with command of the language in a number of subjects. Yet, somehow, they never learned the discipline of translating verbal data into visual/readable data.

Composed music came from the heart of someone who had the ability to codify the creation on paper to share with others. And the notes on the staff is just one way our hearts and minds access this music, there are others as well, like intense listening.

The important thing is that we acquire the musical vocabulary to have a meaningful and constructive musical conversation with each other... and I mean on the bandstand with our instruments in hand, not spelling out 13th chords on a forum somewhere.

...we should be encouraging the study and application of theory to our playing outside of and apart from any study of written notation.

Amen, brother. Amen.

(but knowing how to read is really cool. In fact, it's a chick magnet.)

[Robert Harper]

I read music and use tab. Unfortunately. the ability to read music hasn't done a lot for me on the steel. I would like to see a Staff with all the notes on a steel placed in the correct place, OCTAvE and all. My reading tab is a blessing and a curse. It allows me to play the thing I enjoy, but limits me to thoes song. I wish I could play by ear and play what I hear. Now there is music playing. I advise people to do what it takes to mechanically learn the darn thing you kow pockets, wher the chords are, bur most importantly I advise to play with others for the knowledge gained there is priceless. Of course, you may have to put up with those that ridicule you for your reliance on tab and other tools in yor tool box. These people who ridicule are usually self righteous and a real PIA and a determiment to thoes of us that would like to learn the instrument. I know I dealt with more than one of those when I showed up as a beginer and was expected to be Curly, Emmons, Seymour,etc ant to know every song from the begining of time, not to mention the egotistical singers.

[b0b]

I've had non-musicians ask me "How can anyone learn to play an instrument without reading music?". It's sort of hard to explain.

[James Mayer]

I've had non-musicians ask me "How can anyone learn to play an instrument without reading music?". It's sort of hard to explain.

Well, all humans learn to speak and have a conversation long before they learn to read. That should explain it pretty well.

[Wayne Quinn]

i think i half to agree with Mike P on this one .i think if i had known theory and cord structure and 3rds 4ths 5ths and [Intervals ] ect years ago i would have been a better player a lot sooner.

[Mike Neer]

Learning as much as you can about music should be every musician's goal, I don't care what kind of music you play.

I can write and transcribe music notation very easily and very well--even some pretty intricate stuff--but I am not very good at sight-reading (that is also one of the problems with having good ears--you rely on them almost all the time). I do think basic reading ability is important--especially for analyzing harmony and rhythm. If you can tell a drummer, "play the snare on 2 and 4 and play 1/8 note triplets on the hats", you're half way there.

If you are going to play Jazz (with other musicians), you need to learn to read, period.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Guys, there’s a lot more to music theory than just intervals. It’s actually open ended, and the more you know about it, the more there is to learn.

If I may be permitted to make a very apt analogy, we can all do simple arithmetic in our heads. But if we want to get into the more complex forms of math, we not only need to write everything down, we need to learn all kinds of written symbols.

Music theory is very mathematical. And the simple triads and harmonies found in country music are like basic arithmetic. (That’s not a put down. The harmonic simplicity found in country is one of the things I like about it.)

But if you want to learn the more advanced aspects of music theory like counterpoint and orchestration, you need to be able to read the written symbols of this science.

We’ve all heard music on TV and in movies that is far more complex than the 1,4, and 5 chords found in country music. I assure you that the people who wrote that music not only know how to read music, they have studied advanced music theory and applied it to their compositions.

I guess it’s a question of how much do you want to learn.

[Wayne Morton]

How much do I want to learn? A whole lot more than I know now, & I've been learning for 38 years.

[Stuart Legg]

Click Here

[Bo Legg]

From and earlier discussion here I just wanted to point out that a lot of folks forget that a real 13th chord includes the 11th.
This is the bases in theory of the 4 Maj7 substitutions for the 13th chord.
The 11th included in the 13th chord or for that matter an 11th chord is a very useful inclusion.

[Russ Wever]

. . . a real 13th chord includes the 11th . . .

To be 'really' real about it there, a really real thirteenth chord
(which is a stacking of six 3rds that result in seven notes) also
has a Root, Third, and Fifth, none of which is in the 'real'
thirteenth shown above.

Most working musicians can differentiate between theory and
practice and realize that the b7th, 3rd and 13th tones are the
'meat & potatoe' notes that give the essence of the 13th chord,
and realize that the other notes (unless altered, such as a flatted
or raised fifth) are dispensable, thereby making it more practical
when integrating it within other chords consisting of 3 or 4 voices.
~Russ

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Thanx to you kool kats who brought some proper sens to what started out as a goofy thread
mercy bookoo !

[b0b]

I know that the theory books all say that a 13th chord includes the 11th, but in practice it just ain't so. When you're reading chord charts, it's much better to think of the 13th as an extension of the 9th chord. The 11th makes the chord sound like a sus4, which is rarely the composer's intent.

On C6th steel, the 2-footed P5+P7 gives what I consider to be the most useful 13th voicing: 1 3 5 b7 9 10 13.

On E9th, the C pedal gives you 5 b7 (1) 9 10 13 which is pretty good too - it just doesn't have the low notes.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

The easiest practical 13th chord on the E9 is strings 9, 6, and 5 with the A pedal down. The chord is incomplete, but contains the essential notes, or as Russ put it, the meat and potatoes of the chord.

If you're playing with other musicians, they can provide the root and fifth of the chord, and even if you're playing solo, those three notes will convey, again quoting Russ, its essence.

[Mark van Allen]

For those following along looking for some bandstand applications, it might be interesting to note that since chords are constructed in thirds, ie: every other note from the parent scale, the Major 13th chord is in essence an entire major scale played as every other note through two octaves: R,3,5,7,9(2 in the second octave), 11(4), and 13(6).
The use of the b7 tone makes it a dominant 7th chord.

I agree with b0b that the 11 is usually omitted, and in fact if voiced closely with the 3rd creates a real clash. Where a pianist could play all 7 notes across both hands, most music seems to work best with less of a chord cluster anyway, and as Russ mentions, the 3rd, b7 and 13 (6) tones are the intervals that really get the sound of the chord across musically. (Nearly every chord contains a root and 5th, and someone else in the band is usually playing them anyway!)

The whole point for the most bandstand mileage is that the 13th chord is a great ornamentation for whenever you'd use a 7th chord- I to IV or V to I chord moves, static blues or rock chord vamps, etc.
So try this: any fret strings 8,6,5 are the Root, 3rd and 5th of the "no pedals" chord at that fret (C at the 8th fret, for example). Move your thumb down to string 9 for b7, 3rd and 5th, or a dominant 7th chord (with no root). Then adding the A pedal in and out will move the upper 5th tone to the 6th, which on top of the lower b7 builds the 13th chord. This 7th to 13th chord move is one of the coolest and easiest ways to spice up a dominant chord.
Applying the same idea to other scale/chord positions will yield all kinds of other ideas.

And Stuart, if you got a pencil and wrote this down on tab paper, you could, um, pass it along...

[Gene Jones]

An interval is the distance of a squad members arm to the shoulder of the soldier next to him, followed by the command of: When you get your interval, drop your arms.

What does this have to do with music?

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

An interval is the distance of a squad members arm to the shoulder of the soldier next to him, followed by the command of: When you get your interval, drop your arms.

What does this have to do with music?

Same word, 2 different but slightly similar meanings.