The Steel Guitar Forum

Paul
I would not want to force my interpretation into your reply.
I would however enjoy some clarification of parts of your reply.

The first part of your reply regarding intervals is an obvious truth, but pretty much a given for most. I would hope no one here has been misguided enough to try to memorize the entire neck of their PSG in notation so they can play by sheet music and apply music theory.

The second part of your reply while arguably true is not a gimme since I’m pretty sure that most including the theory wise folks would not have a clue when you say “leave out the thirds in all the major keys”.
To some it would mean that you want the option to play a minor or a major over the major chords.
To others like my brother Cody (the head banger grunge player) that would mean crank up the overdrive and play power chords.

The ability to read music even on a basic level opens some very big doors.

Stuart Legg wrote:Paul

The first part of your reply regarding intervals is an obvious truth, but pretty much a given for most. I would hope no one here has been misguided enough to try to memorize the entire neck of their PSG in notation so they can play by sheet music and apply music theory.

You assume a lot of theory is understood by all if you believe "most" understand interval formulas.....I've been teaching steel players for over three decades and remembering back to some of the classes I taught with Jeff, I would ask the question, "Who knows what an interval is?....And at least a third of the tab only crowd did not have a clue.....This information is not being taught thru tablature...You'd be surprised at guys who have come very far by playing tab arrangements along with a rhythm track.. A percentage does not understand "why" or "what" they are playing beyond the tablature title. As a teacher my goal is to teach steel guitarists how to communicate clearly through the language of music and especially to show them how to use that knowledge to create their own voice.......I believe the community needs more band musicians... IMO, Teachers should never take anything for granted.

Stuart Legg wrote:Paul

1. The second part of your reply while arguably true is not a gimme since I’m pretty sure that most including the theory wise folks would not have a clue when you say “leave out the thirds in all the major keys”.



2. To some it would mean that you want the option to play a minor or a major over the major chords.


3. To others like my brother Cody (the head banger grunge player) that would mean crank up the overdrive and play power chords.

1. When someone says to me, "leave out the thirds in all of the major chords throughout the chart".......It means play only the 1 and 5 of an otherwise 1, 3, and 5 major chord throughout the chart.......If you know a less confusing way to communicate that request? I'm all ears.

2. Your question "What I want" is a production question. What he wants stylistically does not negate the request to not play any thirds.

3. Your brother Cody is allowed to interpret the concept of no thirds for his genre. Classical composers and folk writers sometimes prefer the same open sound a major chord has. When thirds are implied through melodies and absent in the chord structure......

Just curious, were you really confused?

Paul

Intervals is another "short cut " method
even tho' it's in French, look at the charts & you'll get the idea
please note
in 1 it's Ionian of C
2 : Dorian of D (not C !) (Bb major scale)
3 : Phrygian of E (Ab major scale)
4 : Lydian of F (G major scale)
5 : Mixolydian of G (F major scale)
6 : Aeolian of A (Eb major scale)
7 : Locrian of B (Db major scale)

in French, we translate "If you’re having to be shown everything"
by "having to cut the meat in your plate for you"

Paul this is a real pleasure reading your responses here but I think it is obvious that you know a lot more than just the basics you refer to as all we need.
Yes I know a lot about intervals but unlike you I’m not in a position to rub elbows with the musicians who are capable of participating in that sort of communication.
I do know that I didn’t learn intervals in 2 days much less
Quote: "Arpeggios, Triads, Intervals, Chromatics, Diatonic harmonies over a single chord, understanding the differences in time signatures,unquote

I have a question. “Would it be too simplistic speaking of chords to say that intervals of the notes of a major scale related to one given tonic could be expressed by numbering that major scale over 2 octaves and play only a combination of the odd numbered notes with the understanding that you are allowed to sharp or flat any of those odd numbered notes except the 1 (the tonic)“?

Stuart Legg wrote:Paul this is a real pleasure reading your responses here but I think it is obvious that you know a lot more than just the basics you refer to as all we need.
Yes I know a lot about intervals but unlike you I’m not in a position to rub elbows with the musicians who are capable of participating in that sort of communication.
I do know that I didn’t learn intervals in 2 days much less
Quote: "Arpeggios, Triads, Intervals, Chromatics, Diatonic harmonies over a single chord, understanding the differences in time signatures,unquote

I have a question. “Would it be too simplistic speaking of chords to say that intervals of the notes of a major scale related to one given tonic could be expressed by numbering that major scale over 2 octaves and play only a combination of the odd numbered notes with the understanding that you are allowed to sharp or flat any of those odd numbered notes except the tonic“?

Stuart,

Its a pleasure for me as well....Why is theory so hard to teach? I truly believe its because everyone tends to start with scales which goes towards "how"......First players need to memorize terms and definitions so they have a foundation to build upon. This is no different than memorizing the multiplication tables for a solid foundation.


1. I would teach the open tuning E9th as intervals...

The E's are the 1st interval (known as the root note)

The G#'s are 3rd intervals

The B's are the 5th intervals

The F#s are 9th intervals

The D# is a major 7th interval

The D note is the dominant 7th

No need to go much farther until they memorize the open tuning. Next step would be memorizing the string intervals out of the 4 chord position which is with A and B pedals down.

Paul

A while back, when I was first learning how to play jazz guitar, I remember feeling a bit lost (melodically) with all of the tools I had learned and memorized. I might have known all of the potential scales/modes to use at any point in a song but it wasn't doing me any good.
Later on, I had a sort of simplistic breakthrough I guess. I realized that the main chord tones are the most important to be aware of - and to own so to speak, and all the other notes are of use in some way. I also became more aware of building what I play one interval at a time. I'm glad I know the details (i.e. how to play across the neck over a half diminished chord with a natural 9) but I hardly ever think about it when playing anymore. I just take it one note at a time, and I feel a bit more musical, even if there are a few more epic clams when I play.

Whenever I show somebody something and they say, "oh!". My response to that goes something like, "yeah, but you're going to have to learn that many more times, from different angles, until you fully understand it." At least that is true for me. You get glimpse of the bigger picture and then it seems to fade away every time.

Stuart you’re comparing apples to oranges. Paul speaks of enough to communicate and you speak of enough to lecture.
You and I have communicated only between ourselves so long on all thing musical that we have long ago stopped using words like interval.
We’ve transformed our knowledge within our own little world to the point that we only speak in numbers.
We have developed kind of “Sixth Sense”
"I see the PSG neck as numbers ... they're everywhere only the odd numbers. They can’t be seen by everyone else. They don't even know that there are numbers."
Think about this for a moment.
TablEdit is not just tab and it is a great teaching tool but it nor the old out dated form of tab was ever intended to be the sole source of your musical education.
It is only a view of where the player played on the neck. It was not intended to be a PSG Bible stating “thou shalt play here or go to hell”

Bo Legg wrote:Stuart you’re comparing apples to oranges. Paul speaks of enough to communicate and you speak of enough to lecture.

We’ve transformed our knowledge within our own little world to the point that we only speak in numbers.

"I see the PSG neck as numbers ... they're everywhere only the odd numbers.

Bo,

Thanks for the clarification......I'm enjoying this thread....Its a sidetrack to what I've been doing for the last two days which is preparing for my seminars in Dallas next week.

Its good to see that you both relate with numbers/intervals. This in itself affirms the initial comment I made....Its important to learn the numeric language of intervals. Its really an easy way to communicate with other accomplished musicians......That kind of communication is what this town is famous for.......The Nashville Number System is actually the interval formula for the major scale.

Without any instrument in the hands, players should at least learn the definitions of proper theory terms.....like arpeggio, diatonic, scale, intervals, half step or whole step, chromatic, harmony, triads, etc

Its kind of like cramming for a test, this memorization study should not take more than a day or two to accomplish.....In the beginning there is no need to know why, just learn what they are for communication purposes........Armed with this increment of theory knowledge and a memorization of where the intervals are located across the fretboard anyone should be able to see and play what is relayed to them in numbers/intervals......On down the road they can decide which issues need a deeper understanding.

Paul

I think it's equally important to learn the intervals between strings as they relate to each other, rather than just to the root (ie, string 5 (B) to string 3 (G#) equals a major 6, string 7 (F#) to string 4 (E) equals a minor 7, etc).

You can also think in terms of other keys besides the root key of that position. In the open position, you can also think in terms of the key of A and B, etc., only the interval (or degree, as I like to call them) names will have changed.

I learned it all in my high school music theory books, and it's been extremely helpful to me since, especially for transposition and arranging, not to mention finding stuff all over the neck in the most unlikely places. I should mention, I am much too dense to play an E9 neck.

Paul I wish Stuart and I could be there for that. I speak for Stuart as well here because I know he won't be up until the afternoon.
We are in the process of moving so the trip to Dallas is out this year.
We would hope you could make a DVD of the Seminars.
Well maybe we will at least get some pictures.
Your insights here are very useful and I love the fact that you are sharing your experiences in communicating with musicians at the highest level.
I have tried all these years to use the techniques you employ and steal a lot of licks from you here and there and I tell folks that I have learned a lot from you.
Don't worry! I also tell them not to judge your playing based on how I play.

Well, people do like to believe that what they've been doing their whole lives was is some way the "right" thing to BE doing.* I've seen so many odd and "back-door" kinds of breakthroughs in understanding that I'd hesitate to say there is a "wrong" way to learn music or even anything about it. Is it elevating (who?) to look at a reading-only classicist who "can't improvise?" I've seen a couple explode into joy & even brilliance with little more than Miles' guideline - "There are no bad notes." And, "tone is in the brain...."

I was lucky enough to live in Austin in the 80's a few blocks down from a then-hideous little bar called the Continental Club. All-black ceiling, walls and floor, the toilet rarely worked and I could smell the alley from my porch... The Fabulous T-Bird's star guitarist Jimmy Vaughan's impoverished little brother Stevie would play there weeknights for $1.98, and there was another "experimental" guitarist named Eric Johnson kicking around... and at least a half-dozen "better" guitarists. An entirely different kind of pedagogy was in place than you might find at Berklee or Julliard, but to think these guys just "had the gift" and didn't WORK to get where they got... uh-uh.

*(And most importantly - we don't all want the same things, which I see as a blessing, not a curse and especially not a basis for "ranking.")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4emJASI ... re=related

This is the kind of thread I live for here- thanks all!

While I can't argue that reading standard notation isn't a great help to learning and growth (hint- a fantastic resource for great lap steel licks is trombone transcriptions!)and really helpful when playing on theater dates or jingle sessions- I generally relate student needs to what we all do to some degree, which is playing by ear.

Sitting in blind, playing recording or jam sessions, or even bringing something new to our old repertoire all involve interval recognition. It follows that the best thing we can do for our playing is to increase our speed and acuity at recognizing and internalizing intervallic structures. Anything and everything that builds our "ear", knowledge of the guitar, and knowledge of theoretical musical structure combine to make the connections that make us confident and interesting players.
While standard notation is one way of notating theoretical concepts, it remains key-centric, where the "number system" affords a simple, concise way of cataloging all theoretical information, in a formulaic system that works for one, and all keys.

I'm not arguing with anyone here just posing a question.
Would expressing intervals in terms of numbers be of any use what so ever for a piano player?
The piano player would have to in his mind convert the notation to numbers and then convert it back to notation before he could apply it to the keyboard.
I would think a fake sheet would be much more useful for piano than Nashville Numbers.
I think fake sheets predate Nashville Numbers by a lot of years. I really don't know why they fell out of favor.

Stuart, thinking in terms of numbers would benefit any musician. Most of the keyboardists I work and record with use and think in numbers.
For me, the numbers represent or correlate exactly to the music- the chord stacks, extensions or substitutions, scale choices and changes, all can be thought of in numbers. Writing them in standard notation would require a different chart or explanation for every key, where with numbers, when you've done it once, it takes care of all twelve possibilities.
The numbers are the system!

Stuart Legg wrote:
Would expressing intervals in terms of numbers be of any use what so ever for a piano player?

"Figured Bass" was widely used to notate keyboard accompaniment in baroque music. It used numerals written above or below a bass note written on a staff in standard notation, to indicate what intervals should be used to harmonize the bass note - very much like the way jazz lead sheets represent chords as root tones plus specification of harmonic quality (minor, augmented 11th etc.)

Roman numerals have been used in classical music theory to represent chord progressions, since the early 1800s, very much like the way the Nashville system represents chord progressions.

In the early 1960s John Mehegan published his four-volume "Jazz Improvisation," possibly the first comprehensive how-to manual on this topic. The whole work is based on an adaptation of the classical Roman numeral system to tin pan alley material. It is a bit of an investment to learn his system, but it is an effective way to internalize the workings of the chord progressions of practically all of jazz through the fifties and much of what followed. The books are still available.

John Alexander wrote:

Stuart Legg wrote:I'm not arguing with anyone here just posing a question.
Would expressing intervals in terms of numbers be of any use what so ever for a piano player?
The piano player would have to in his mind convert the notation to numbers and then convert it back to notation before he could apply it to the keyboard.
I would think a fake sheet would be much more useful for piano than Nashville Numbers.
I think fake sheets predate Nashville Numbers by a lot of years. I really don't know why they fell out of favor.

"Figured Bass" was widely used to notate keyboard accompaniment in baroque music. It used numerals written above or below a bass note written on a staff in standard notation, to indicate what intervals should be used to harmonize the bass note - very much like the way jazz lead sheets represent chords as root tones plus specification of harmonic quality (minor, augmented 11th etc.) - much is left to the player to determine how this information is used.

Roman numerals have been used in classical music theory to represent chord progressions, since the early 1800s, very much like the way the Nashville system represents chord progressions.

In the early 1960s John Mehegan published his four-volume "Jazz Improvisation," possibly the first comprehensive how-to manual on this topic. The whole work is based on an adaptation of the classical Roman numeral system to tin pan alley material. It is a bit of an investment to learn his system, but it is an effective way to internalize the workings of the chord progressions of practically all of jazz through the fifties and much of what followed. The books are still available.

I learned Mehegan's system. I need a refresher, though.

Traditional ("classical" as in Walter Piston's text book) theory of harmonic analysis looks a lot like what the pop musicians use. Obviously 1 4 5 are the same altho traditionally Roman numerals are used.

There are a few differences. For example, in a major key, II, III, and VI are minor chords whereas if you write 2 in the Nashville system it would mean a major chord.

Traditional analysis also places much more importance on the bass note. The bass part is regarded as an essential part of the chord progression, whereas in pop music the chart may contain just a number or name, leaving the choice of bass line up to the taste and discretion of the player.

The old-fashioned way contains more information, but it is usually faster to write the pop music language, so I usually do that when taking down a song in real time. My impression of the Nashville number system is that it was developed by guys who wanted to get as much info on the page as possible while only listening to the song once (time=money). You can always go back later and add detail.

Earnest Bovine wrote:
There are a few differences. For example, in a major key, II, III, and VI are minor chords whereas if you write 2 in the Nashville system it would mean a major chord.

Maybe I don't understand the Nashville system after all. I understand II, in a major key, as a minor chord. Dm in the key of C, for example.

How could 2 be a major?

James Mayer wrote:

Earnest Bovine wrote:
There are a few differences. For example, in a major key, II, III, and VI are minor chords whereas if you write 2 in the Nashville system it would mean a major chord.

Maybe I don't understand the Nashville system after all. I understand II, in a major key, as a minor chord. Dm in the key of C, for example.

How could 2 be a major?

II is major, ii is minor. The 2 chord could be major and often is, but that is when it functions as a secondary dominant, or the V7 of V7. It's used to just add some extra color--it's very often used in jazz. Using Dmi7 to G7 can be very vanilla, but the II7 does not work as a substitute in many cases. handle with care.

... because sometimes you actually want the 2 chord to be major, so many (most?) players distinguish it by writing either 2m or 2- to specify the minor and if it just says 2, then assume it to be major, In many such cases one wants it to be a dominant chord, so will really write it as 27 (with the 7 being a superscript).

p.s., um, yeah; what Mike said.

Mike Neer wrote:II is major, ii is minor.

Some people use upper-case/lower-case to make important distinctions. But I don't see it much since it's easily misunderstood. Worst example is guys who write M7 for major 7th, and m7 for minor 7th, all in poor handwriting. I hate when that happens!

Many chart writers in Nashville write a minus symbol after 2 to denote a 2 minor...I don't recall ever seeing any Roman numerals on a chart,either.

Steve Hinson wrote:Many chart writers in Nashville write a minus symbol after 2 to denote a 2 minor...

I think the jazz guys started that, way back when. It's faster than writing "m", and time is money. Or in my case, time is time.