The Steel Guitar Forum

Chris, that's kind of what I've always hoped. But last night, as a steel player out in the crowd, I got a feeling for what my friends were talking about. I like your concept of hitting the little fills just as loud as the solos. I owe my bass player some ear pain anyway (just kiddin' Chris C., just kiddin' )

Albert where did you get the EDI box and what does it look like and how does it hook up to the amp? Thanks, Landon.

Dan,

With all respect to Chris & his bass, crank up the steel. His uncle Frank always seems to have his steel mixed pretty well for those jams down at the VFW Watertown, MA.

Jim

One of these weeks when my work schedule permits, I'll be out to hear you play.

One word in defense of sound folk everywhere: On any given night the friends and/or significant others of every person on stage will tell them, individually and with great emphasis, that "I can't hear my friend/boyfriend/girlfriend's voice/instrument, you really need to turn them up."

It doesn't matter what instrument they play, if it's the drummer's girlfriend it's the drums that she can't hear over the bass and keys. If it's the bass player's wife she can't hear hubby for all the guitars and vocals in the mix. And the singer's manager is furious if he can't hear every whipser uttered by his precious talent amidst the competitive din.

Obviously they can't all be right, and just turning everybody up will not stop the complaints.

This is the same noise that the band - that's us - hears the moment that they step off the stage, never mind that the person who thinks the bass is too loud is sitting right in front of the subwoofer, or the person who can't hear the vocals is playing pool in another room.

It is, for the most part, a thankless and unrewarding profession and accordingly most of the really good ones have left the field altogether and found other things to do. The unforgiving fact of the matter is that if a band can play with sensitivity and dynamics it's pretty easy to get a good sound no matter what the sound tech does. On the other hand, a band that plays too loud all the time might as well pay the sound folks to stay at home for all the good they can do.

Dave, I generally agree with you. I think some of the stage volume problems come from too much kick drum in the mix and too much monitor period. If the monitors are kept low we'd all have to be quiet in order to hear the singer.

But your main point is very well taken.

Dan

I came into music half a century ago...when nobody except a TV station or recording studio had a "sound man". Back in those days, it was expected that the band had to learn dynamics, and learn to (by themselves) get a good sound out in the audience, and a decent sound on stage. Musicians, by and large, spend decades honing and practicing their craft. Whereas, most "sound men" I've been exposed to in the past couple of decades seem to have been at it for a frightfully short time. I gather, by their display of borderline competentcy, they are mostly tone-deaf singers, or nearly-deaf ex-lead players from a rock band. I'd venture that one out of twenty probably does a decent job, and the rest only know that if loud doesn't work, just make it louder! Of course, bands, by and large, compound this problem by their wanting to look and sound like "BIG STARS".

Let me put it this way:

If I walk into a club that seats 200 people, and see plexiglass around the drums, speakers that look like black side-by-side refrigerators, and a "snake" making it's way to a board the size of a small pool table, I can pretty much guarantee I'll not stay for more than two or three songs.

"LOUD" may be great at rock concerts, car races, and on battlefields, but it pretty much sucks everywhere else.

I will only add that it's not just dynamics in terms of VOLUME, but most importantly everybody has to leave room for each other to work in, both rythmically and harmonically. If the musicians all listen to each other, pay attention to the space BETWEEN the notes and play accordingly then it's going to be easy to hear EVERYTHING on stage whether the actual volume is soft or loud. That's when you know you are in the presence of REAL MUSICIANS!

Yes, Dave, I should mention that most of my recent gigs have been filling in with a band that has six pieces, so sonic space is a big issue, indeed. But there's at least one club my regular band plays fairly often where it's just steel and electric trading leads and fills, and we are very careful to make room for each other, to no avail as far as getting the steel to be heard.

Dan

it's just steel and electric trading leads and fills, and we are very careful to make room for each other, to no avail as far as getting the steel to be heard

In your case I would just bring in my Randall Steel Man amp, set it up just beside and enough behind me to reach the knobs, point it in the general direction of my best friends (NOT the sound mixer, see the note below), and then I would dime the amp and get up on that thing so that the sound guy leaves me out of the mix altogether and I can control the volume the way I want to. If the sound guy comes and tells me the steel is too loud, I just smile and say "yeah, I know..."

NOTE: Guitar amps, particulalry those with more than one speaker, are very directional. Never point your amp directly at the sound board, if the mixer hears the sound from the amp directly on-axis it will always be mixed low or left out altogether, because where they are listening it's already loud enough, although a with few steps to either side it may be relatively inaudible.

In your case I would just bring in my Randall Steel Man amp, set it up just beside and enough behind me to reach the knobs, pointed in the general direction of my best friends and NOT the sound mixer, and then I would dime it so the sound guy leaves me out of the mix altogether and I can control the volume the way I want to. If the sound guy comes and tells me the steel is too loud, I just smile and say "yeah, thanks, I know..."

Dave Grafe wrote:I will only add that it's not just dynamics in terms of VOLUME, but most importantly everybody has to leave room for each other to work in, both rythmically and harmonically. That's when you know you are in the presence of REAL MUSICIANS!

Amen Dave. You stole my thunder.

Our band has been working on clearing out the clutter, taking turns on vocal pads and fills and rethinking every fill, lick, hook and rhythm we all play. This allows for the sweet sound of piano, guitar and steel to be heard more nearly on it's own and clearly. Also keeps it interesting to the audience, and the vocalists love it!

Not to say parts aren't doubled up at times but it's by conscious choice. There are times the wall of sound is appropriate.

For the few events we do that have sound reinforcement provided, I work to befreind the sound tech, explain what to expect RE my volume pedal, cross my fingers and play for the stage. I try not to get to upset over anything to do with making music, it's supposed to be fun!

I think a big percentage of us play our back behind singer for nothing. I've even heard famous country bands mixed to where you could hear the steel solos and but not the backup. I get that complaint from our OPRY show that I'm never loud enough during backup. Our band is really good about never walking on each other or even walking on the singer so it has to be a sound mix problem. I've tried playing louder and also playing lower so sound could be brought up in FOH mix but nothing works consistently.

I've had a few occasions where I was called to back a singer/songwriter where he played an acoustic/electric so loud nothing else could get thru. He really liked the idea of having a steel player, but I have no idea why, since there was no space for me to play in, and I know no one heard me. Another time, the band did a two hour drum check and on the first song, I looked back and my amp mic wasn't even plugged in.

A major problem with sound reinforcement is that different styles of music, different musicians and bands, and different sound people may all have radically different ideas about how sound reinforcement should be approached, and some of these different ideologies are completely incompatible.

I personally prefer for a sound person to get reasonable levels which cover the loudest possible situation imaginable, then back it off significantly to give plenty of headroom, and then generally permit the band to control level dynamics. But this assumes the band knows how to do this, and many don't. Some don't even think in those terms - many think they should just set everything on stun and rely on the sound person to maintain total control.

I used to run sound quite often (it is frequently a thankless job), and I often found major gaps in communication and understanding. Many bands absolutely expected me to take total control of the mix to the point of constantly riding faders up and down to control every aspect of the performance. Personally, I hate it when FOH does this, but that is often expected, and some sound people simply have this behavior ingrained. Some who mainly do rock shows also have it ingrained that the SPL must be constantly kept at the limit, and everything is geared around that - in this case, it's gonna be a long night for me. Some musicians play so damned loud that it is impossible to get any reasonable type of mix, and that's also gonna lead to a long night.

Of course, as has already been mentioned, some rock-oriented sound people just don't understand older styles like old-school blues, jazz, and country, and especially are not familiar with highly dynamic (and, in their mind, non-rock) instruments like pedal steel. They apply that rock and roll ethos, and constantly ride the faders to keep the SPL constant.

I generally try to talk with a new sound person and reach a meeting of the minds - sometimes that works fine. Other times, they have no idea what I'm talking about. In a large venue which depends critically on full-band reinforcement, you're at their mercy. But a typical pedal steel amp set on stun can overcome even the most intransigent sound person in a small-moderate sized room. In this case, I try to point the amp away from the rest of the band and sound booth, and that frequently works OK. I agree with Chris L - I come right up on important fills and solos, and back way off the rest of the time. But nothing works if band members don't listen to each other and just play over everything. This is, unfortunately, way too typical and only the band can fix that.

My take.

Landon,
The EDI box was made by Peavey years ago. I have one that
was built into my Peavey Special 112 amp. I don't think they make
them anymore but you might find one on E-bay. The signal comes
right from the speaker itself and has a XLR output that goes to
FOH. It also has a small timbre control so you can match the
output to your speaker tone. I don't play without it.

I agree with several others that the sound man should set things even and leave the board alone. If something is way out of whack fix it, but otherwise leave it be.
I'm in a band that knows how to mix itself.
We do run into some who think the bass and kick are the most important parts, but we try to get that straightened out at sound check. We keep our stage volume low so it does need to be in the fronts.
I do get annoyed at the guy who thinks he needs to turn me up when I'm purposely playing quiet.
A few times on our current tour we've complimented the sound tech for a nice job and he said "I didn't do anything". We say "precisely"

...he said "I didn't do anything". We say "precisely"

Excellent!

The problem with sound men in my opinion is that they honestly believe they are doing a great job !!! If you say anything about your mix they think you want your instrument to overpower all the others ! I don't know where these guys get their training from ? They make a stupid statement like steel players can't hear anyway ! Doesn't that make you happy Oh by the way i have heard that one ! I have to keep quiet when i hear that . I have noticed when watching a sound man he is always turning knobs when everything sounds good ! Let me say this if you have a good sound man treat him good because they are hard to find . G.P.

I don't know where these guys get their training from

Training? Training?!! We don't need no stinking training!!!

If it's a good sound guy I get the best results by turning the speaker away from the front (so that it pointed sideways, towards the stage), by playing quietly, and by dialing down the dynamics. It's typically better in a rock and roll context, and I'm doing 'guitar parts', because they can relate to that.

I sometimes will take my volume pedal out of the way.It seems to give the foh guys something they understand better.I also run sound for a few venues and being a steel player and lead player helps to mix in the steel a little better.By the way the steel players are not as bad as the singer moving side to side or two feet back from the mike trying to act like Frank Sinatra.By the way,do you know how to tell if a lead singer is at your front door? He never knows when to come in.

One "teachable moment" for me in recent years was seeing more than one bluegrass act gather round ONE mic and balance ALL the voices and ALL the instruments perfectly with NO monitors,so I know that the band has some control over the balance and therefore some responsibility for what goes on.

Another was that a sound company that's contracted for the event and brings in its own pro-level system usually does a much better job than some chucklehead venue who bought a bunch of used gear off CL and has the bouncer running the board.In a related context,it's worth observing that venues who hire multiple bands who all share the door usually don't pay much more for sound than they do for music-and usually get the quality of both that they pay for.

Dave this explains sound men ! They don't have any training ! By your own admission huh ? Sounds right to me !!!!! Hey lets find someone walking down the street with a '' Boom Box '' on his shoulder and make him the sound man ! Thats the way to go right ?

...not exactly, Gary, it's more like let's get a friend of ours to come to all the gigs with us and run sound. He doesn't know anything about it but he's our friend so we can count on him to look after us, right?

Right you are,Dave.The guy with the boom box usually gets tapped for the lead singer slot.