The Steel Guitar Forum

Mickey Adams wrote:Some interesting responses in this thread already and Id hoped there would be....
Johnny, I was talking a gentleman just the other day about the bands in TX that play without a guitar player..Which he thought was absurd of course...and there are several, one of which is your current band...I think a few doses of structured country music void of guitar would be an effective lesson for any guitarist that thinks he needs to be center of attention..
I also agree that guitarists think they NEED To overplay...And I was one of them..It took me a long time to realize that its senseless to try to reproduce a studio mix by trying to play every guitar part that is sewn together by the engineer, onstage..

I'm glad to see you pointing these things out. I've always believed that you spend a lot of years learning HOW to play, and if you want to become a good player, you spend some time learning WHEN to play.

Overplaying musicians are like everyone crossing the outer marker at the same time. Uh oh.

One of the greatest compliments I ever got was from a very good accordionist who was listening to a quartet in which I had just replaced a "hot" guitar player. He said he had been telling his wife how good I was because I stayed out of the way of the vocals, played simple fills in between the vocal lines, and stepped forward to fill the place of the voices when it came to the instrumental break. I just listen to the sound of the band and try to play what is needed.

And the advantage of a good live band over a DJ is that a band can distill the essence of the song, leaving out all the studio work. A DJ has to be loud so that you can hear all the extra stuff; a band can strip it down so you get the beat, the lyrics and the character of the song, yet still can carry on a conversation.

Mickey
I saw an ad looking for a lead player for a supposed country band South of Houston, Great within an hour for me, contacted the rhythm player and he informed me that he was looking for a lead player and wasn't interested in a Steel guitarist. He then let me know that it shouldn't be hard to find a gig since no one hardly plays Steel in the area. I wrote him to let him know that there were probably 100 in the Houston area and 1000 in Texas maybe more. Also I thought you were running a country band.
Oh well what a mentality.

Lee, Ha! I liked that response from you.
Typical band leader I'm afraid.

Lee, i can sure believe that!!...Nothing surprises me anymore!...what a shame...

Great Idea!

I did a search on Google for "Bandstand Etiquette" and it seems there are two categories of musicians that are bothered about this

• Jazz musicians
  Harmonica players

Here is one that sums it up.
http://www.netplaces.com/harmonica/impr ... quette.htm

// Anders

Lee,
The band Im playing with now was only looking for a guitarist as well. I answered the ad and mentioned I played steel too. I play steel on songs that have prominent steel in the original version and double on others. Now they want to find a rhythm guitarist so I can play more steel! Somehow people have forgotten how important steel is to country music! BTW, Ive noticed that the songs I play steel on are the ones that people get up and dance to.

Clete

Great topic Mickey. I've been playing in bands over 50 years and have had plenty of experience with"my amps bigger than yours". I have been with Billy Mata for nearly 18 years and I feel very lucky to play with a very talented group where everyone gets to shine and no one feels it necessary to play all the time and peel plaster. We play western swing and old country with steel,fiddle,lead and sometimes piano. Everyone understands how to play with each other as a band and it's our job to provide back up music as good as we can to support the singer.
As far as guitar players go, I have played lots of times with fiddle and steel and no guitar. It's not uncommon around here. I love a guitar player that will work with you but,if he can't I'd rather do without. I'm guilty of over playing the vocals too. Dynamics and over playing is one of the hardest things to learn.

Cool Thread Mickey, I play in a grateful Dead cover band and that is one of my suggestions, play them some dead who could go from a whisper to a scream and back again, dynamics is where its at. As for my country band we have a stand up Bass player whos time is like a rock so we just didnt hire a drummer not only do we not have to clean up the drool on the floor anymore we use the drummers share to buy beer.

Brings to mind when I met Mr. Cox in Brady Tx.we were talking & I said that a guitar player would add a lot to the mix & Johnny said"If you could find a good one,yeah".
The band sounded super without a guitar,just Johnny,Ron Knuth,Dixie Hanky(sp) & Justin on bass.

great posts!....Most of the bands that play at Pearls here in the Stockyards don't use guitar players either...and its a welcome subtraction. Its a real eye opener to LISTEN to them play without one...Then its easy to see how a you could either ADD to the picture, or cloud the landscape very easily..

Thanks for the discussion, Mickey. I'm forwarding a link to this thread to my bandmates. It's a lesson I can't get enough of. My observation is that I never harmed a song by playing less.

Thanks for the discussion, Mickey. I'm forwarding a link to this thread to my bandmates. It's a lesson I can't get enough of. My observation is that I never harmed a song by playing less.

Some very interesting things in this thread and true to the point. I'm also lucky to play in a band that our guys know when to play and what to play even though one is a guitar. We are usually just four piece with drums, bass, steel and guitar and at times piano. I wish we had fiddle too. I play fiddle too but can't do both at same time so usually just leave it at home.

This town I live in has no concept what so ever what a good band susposed to sound like. Most of the so called "country" bands around this area consist of two guitars, bass, drums and sometimes two keyboards. Yes, I said two keyboards. Went out on New Years about 7 or 8 years ago to hear the most in demand band at the V.F.W. They had two rhythm guitars, two leads guitars, two key boards and three harmony singers that didn't even know what harmony was. I left after the first set and went to Denny's. I may also add that they were loud and could just barely hear the vocals which I think was much better for the band anyway. The point is that most of the people bragged on how good they were.

How can these places and people be conditioned to know what a good band sounds like? Not to sound like I'm bragging but our band is a good band. We play dance music like they do at Pearl's and have good vocals, good harmony and good instrumentation but not in demand like these ten piece bands are. When I say ten piece, 6 of them are guitars. Oh well, nuff said. I could go on and on, LOL

LMAO....I seem to recall a Muppet....thats main phrase was..."BEAT DRUMS"!!!!!!

I am new to the forum, actually this is my first post, and not even a steel player yet, I'm just a steel player wannabe! I currently play guitar and have always played "at" the steel when no one could hear me. I'm in a pretty decent band, IMO, and one quote comes to mind that our drummer starts off every night with

"All together and not too loud"

and then he counts off the first song. I'm very thankful to play with musicians and not just instrument players.

Cheers,
Andy

Comfort Zone/Level should be mandatory

I have been in a couple of bands without a lead guitar player, and frankly, I don't ever want to do it again. I would rather have a good (note that I said GOOD) guitar player than a keyboard player or a freaking fiddle player. I did a band with me on steel (only steel), bass, drums and girl singer (who just sang and played tambourine). Actually sounded OK but was NO FUN. Way too much work for little pay.

I understand everybody's input on this thread.

I play in a popular band and I think it's primarily because of our blend, dynamics and songs. Not because of any flash, groove or great musicianship.

I am usually shocked when I hear other bands because the mud is usually so thick it's uncomfortable. Usually way too much 400 cycle mud.

Here are the rules we live by...

The lows should be only the bass guitar, kick and toms. The low mids should be snare and vocals and everybody else should cut the low end.

Intros and solos should be played loud but when somebody is singing, everybody comes down.

BTW, we play lots of songs nobody else plays. If somebody asks me "Do you know Sweet Home Alabama" I say "Nope".

I've always heard

If you can't play good, play loud......

Richard Sinkler wrote:I have been in a couple of bands without a lead guitar player, and frankly, I don't ever want to do it again. I would rather have a good (note that I said GOOD) guitar player than a keyboard player or a freaking fiddle player. I did a band with me on steel (only steel), bass, drums and girl singer (who just sang and played tambourine). Actually sounded OK but was NO FUN. Way too much work for little pay.

What's wrong with a freaking fiddle player? I assume you mean a bad fiddle player. Nothing sets off a good country band more than a good fiddle player but I also will say, a bad fiddle player makes a long night.

I no longer actively play pedal steel but many of the comments here just remind one about how hard it is to find fundamentally sound musicians in any type of music. I go to this jam/potential band gathering, me on dobro and acoustic lead. It sounds ok, kind of alternate folk. Since I am not a singer primarily I did not expect to do a vocal. However if I asked I will sing so I did one of my old blues numbers "Nobody Wants You When You Are Down and Out". I got some kind of strange looks and then the mandolin player says do you know any blues with less chords. Ok the song was in C it goes to a E7th and A7th to a D minor back to an A7 up to F and a diminished...really it is just a standard blues form more orchestral(I heard it both on a Bessie Smith and Rick Von Schmidt old folk album) then solo blues but not what I call a hard song. So they all kind of were kind of indifferent about it... less chords really?. I just don't see how this is an incredibly "complicated" song.... really... I have heard Joan Baez do it, Eric Clapton etc etc....Am I just being a snob or what...

A band that only knows three chord blues might feel diminutive if you play a diminished chord, so dont do that! By the same token, and augmented chord may be over their heads too, so dont do it either!

Clete

"Play a diminished, youre &^%$# finished!"
—unknown—

I've had the privilege of playing with some very professional folks. I've gotten spoiled and have very little patience with "musicians" that show up for rehearsal to "learn" songs. You learn them at home. Rehearsal is for bringing it all together. Working out problem spots, not playing songs and entertaining yourself. This class of pickers, in my experience, won't end up playing it live like it was rehearsed anyway! I've gone so far as to try and teach the Nashville Number System and how to chart songs, only to find out most of these folks don't know their instrument well enough to understand the NNS! Most common response is "I've used letters so long I just can't relate to the numbers." HUH? It's patterns dummy! And the less they know the more they think they know! The most common practice is to memorize rather than try to understand whats happening musically. It's not about being the best, it's about being your best. These guys just want to get by and party and collect the bucks. Its to bad. Ruins it for everybody in the end. I'll get off my soapbox now. God Bless, Whip.

Henry, not a fan of the fiddle at all. Very few really impress me. And, every one of them wants to play those obnoxious fiddle hoe downs.