Whose problem is this???

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 7 Jan 2012 5:26 am

It is the responsibility of not just the retailer but specifically the individual who handles the sale of the guitar to do their absolute best to insure that the customer is educated. At the least the buyer should be fully aware that while most of the time the height of the "stock" guitar works for most people one size does not "fit all" and lift kits and shortening kits are available. That being said I find the level of customer service in the steel guitar world in general to be far higher than average and as a business man I think it would be irresponsible to not follow suit. I would say that in this case the customer not only should have been aware of the possibility that they might need this kit before hand but should have been offered it in advance should the need arise. I also think it would be reasonable for the customer to expect to pay shipping for the lift kit. Just my 2 cents as a long time (past) business owner.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 7 Jan 2012 5:38 am

Bob, Who is the retailer? I would like to know so I could avoid the same problem when I order mine next week. You can send me an email if you want to. Thank you

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 7 Jan 2012 2:09 pm

He has new legs and pedal rods coming from the retailer, that had them in stock, believe it or not.
They gave him a "break" droppping the price from $150 to $100.. Big deal.. I am not impressed.
Would NOT buy from either the seller or builder.. Might have at one time, not anymore...
Most bulders would swap those parts straight up, minus shipping,, They are in new condition, and now the guy has 4 new aluminum legs and 3 pedal rods that he has no use for,and he's stuck with...
bob

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 7 Jan 2012 2:17 pm

retailer should be responsible...but $100 is pretty fair these days and someone else may want the shorter pieces for that much.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 7 Jan 2012 3:32 pm

chris ivey wrote:retailer should be responsible...but $100 is pretty fair these days and someone else may want the shorter pieces for that much.

I may actually offer to sell them for him right here as a matter of fact.. However, he should not have to pay for this IMHO... It should have been dealt with BEFORE the sale.... Remember, this guitar was a new purchase.. bob

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 7 Jan 2012 4:18 pm

It's between the 2 of them.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 7 Jan 2012 5:35 pm

Theresa, You seem to have a gift for stating the obvious!!

Stephen Cordingley · Post by **Stephen Cordingley** » 8 Jan 2012 7:49 am

some related (?) thoughts:
I deal with many retailers, not just for music products.
Some retailers "go the extra yard", some are "by the Book." I don't necessarily avoid doing business with the "by the Book" retailers, but I do factor "service above and beyond" into my purchasing decisions.
If the customer is provided with full options (like lift kits are $125) and chooses not to purchase them, the retailer might simply fill the order as requested.
A retailer may have a long established business with sizable customer base that has succeeded because the retailer has stuck to the business model and profit margins that allow the business to prosper.
I appreciate and reward receiving exemplary customer service; in this economy, however, I suspect that customers expect a lot (too much?) from retailers. Cavaet Emptor still applies.
Then again,because PSG are a specialty item, it probably makes sense to spend the time and money to establish a face to face relationship with a trusted seller, so you can deal with these issues before you lay out your $.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 8 Jan 2012 9:29 am

from what i've read, looks like both the seller & the buyer are responsible
it's not easy for a first time buyer to get all things covered & right
that's why it's essential to take the time to ask those in the know for the right answers before splurgin' the $$$
even better if possible go try'em out
as to the retailers & manufacturers, there are those who do it all right & go that xtra mile
& those who stick to basics without raising certain issues w: the buyer
in 8 years, i've helped buy & sell approx 60 psgs
i know most retailers, manufacturers, & bunch of fo'bros
95 % are reliable & do things right
i learned from my mistakes at first mind you

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 8 Jan 2012 3:00 pm

Just got this email...Names blotted out to protect the innocent,, as well as the guilty.
He is paying pretty much full price for the 1 inch longer legs and rods....

Bob,

I found the leg length thread on the Steel Guitar forum. It looks like it raised quite a discussion. In the interest of fairness, I went back and found the original email from ***** and the price was $125 - not $150 like I told you.

I should get the replacement legs tomorrow. I guess I should call ++++++ and see what they will do.

Thanks,

Steve ***$$$
Freeville, NY

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 9 Jan 2012 8:45 am

When I ordered my Sierra they took several measurements of my body while sitting on my pac-a-seat, in order to get the pedals/levers all in the right place for "me" (no pedals or lever too far to the right or left please, no Verticle levers that are too high to reach please, etc).
Everything fits me like a glove.... but a friend who is over 6 feet tall tried my steel recently and was barely able to get his knees in the lever slots.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 9 Jan 2012 12:19 pm

When you order a hand built semi-custom pedal steel you need to know what you want and you can not expect them to do free upgrades or changes for after the fact hindsights.
I encourage new guys buying to really take their time and try a bunch out... Go to a convention or club what ever.
Even in the best situations knee levers, string spacing are hard to match to what someone is used to or guess what they don't even know.
Even an experienced player can get surprised ordering a PSG

I like my RKR back close to me and it is not done unless you specify.
It still seems like there is always something unless you can sit down and visit with the builder.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 9 Jan 2012 12:29 pm

Even an experienced player can get surprised ordering a PSG

Amen to that.

Norm Fletcher · Post by **Norm Fletcher** » 27 Jan 2012 11:55 pm

Gotta chime in here....The fact is we are all built differently and our height can have little to do with leg length.
I'm 5'10" and have a 31" pants inseam
Olympic Gold Medalist Michael Phelps is 6'4" and has a 31" pants inseam too---his height is in his torso--but he could sit comfortably at my steel.
I worked with a doctor who was 6'2" and was all legs. If you looked only at his torso, you'd think he was just 5'6".

Perhaps height alone is a poor way to size our guitars. To get it right, measure the distance when sitting down from floor to the top of the knee.
Manufacturers out there--this might be a question to add to an order form!

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 28 Jan 2012 3:16 am

I'm 6'2" and long legged but 25 cents worth of pvc pipe will make all the adjustment I need.
The 2 1/2" piece of pvc pipe will tilt the PSG back and only raise the the front of up aprox 2" due to the increase in angle from perpendicular.
The front edge of the pedals are now about the same height from the floor as they were before I added the 2 1/2" pieces due to increase lean of the leg arcing the pedals closer to the floor.
The added tilt made the back legs more perpendicular to the floor there by raising the back of the steel aprox 1".
This also increases the distance from the back bottom edge of the PSG to the pedals letting you extend your foot out further lowering the height of the persons legs at lest 1/2" to say nothing of the increased comfort. I've done this to all my Sho-Buds as well and they all feel very comfortable.
With the PSG tilted back like this I can sit up straight and still have a good view of the fret markers and on D-10 it gives me more arm clearence from the back neck.
As you can see I have a big office chair slide underneath and there is plenty of room and I haven't used all the back leg adjustment.

.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Jan 2012 6:43 am

Last month, I bought a new wheel for a wheelbarrow. It was about $30, and it came with about a dozen different spacers and bushings, all the things necessary to make it fit just about anything out there.

On the other hand, here we have a new, multi-thousand dollar instrument, and the attitude of all the modern builders (whom, I am repeatedly told, are so tremendously talented, knowledgeable, and detail-oriented) seems to be "You'd better order the right height, 'cause we're incapable of designing and building a guitar that has a reasonable degree of adjustability."

Now, I could maybe understand this back in the days of Shot Jackson and Leo Fender, or even on a modern student model. However, I simply can't fathom such an attitude and lack of innovation when we're talking about a top-of-the-line builder in the 21st century.

Maybe I expect too much?

You want micro-guaged nut rollers? Easy as pie!
Say what...10 knee levers? Not a problem!
You want 6 compensators and all 15 hole pullers? Child's play!

Uhh...what??? You want it to adjust up and down, too?!?!?! Whaddya think we are buddy, magicians?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 28 Jan 2012 7:23 am

The pedal rods are the problem. Legs can be adjusted, but the pedal rods have very little adjustment. I am sure someone could come up with a rod that could have some more adjustment than there is now. Of course, making the rods longer just takes a trip to the hardware store to pick up some threaded spacers, setscrews and some loc-tite. Maybe $10 in parts for a single neck and no more than $20 for a Double. Making them shorter is much more work.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jan 2012 11:02 am

Shortening them requires two tools, one of which most of us have (Dremel or snips and a file), one of which most of us don't (tap and die). Harbor Freight sells the latter for 18 bucks. I bet most of them have more thread than will fit in the fittings, so you could lop some off without needing to cut more threads.
I do think it a little cheesy that both maker and merchant won't take care of it. Personally I'd urge all three parties eat a third.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Jan 2012 12:33 pm

Richard Sinkler wrote:The pedal rods are the problem. Legs can be adjusted, but the pedal rods have very little adjustment.

Agreed Richard, but my point is why hasn't someone done it, as least on the high priced models? Of course, as Lane said, you can jury-rig something (I've seen everything from dowels and conduit to coathangers). But is it so hard to design-in a couple inches of adjustability? If the rods had 1" of adjustability at the top (using alternate attachment points for the rods) and an inch at the bottom, that would gove you 2" of travel. The leg sockets could be recessed more, and the legs "stopped" with a threaded (locking) ring, instead of just tightening the insert shoulder against the endplate.

My point is, this isn't exactly rocket science, and I can't understand why some builder hasn't already done it. They put all this effort into fancy cabinets, compensators, clusters and the like, but they can't seem to tackle a simple thing like making the steel a little more adjustable, height-wise. Having to do the "Home Depot" approach so a different player, or even the same player using western boots one day and mocasins the next, just doesn't seem the right way to do things when you've just spent thousands of dollars on an instrument.

We got the "purty" part down, now let's do something practical.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 28 Jan 2012 12:46 pm

Doesn't MSA now use a pedal rod system where the adjustability for length is in the part under the guitar that the pedal hooks into, rather than the rod itself (so the rods themselves are all the same length and, for one thing, you don't have to number the rods)? Is this adjustability enough to account for a couple of inches difference in guitar height? Or could it be?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jan 2012 1:13 pm

Not meaning to nitpick a point, but trimming the rod and cutting threads onto the shorter rod isn't the jury-rigged solution, that's the "do it the right way" solution, and what the manufacturer does when s/he knows they need shorter rods.

I suppose they could thread the rods farther up, with "notches" cut every 1/2 to 3/4 inches so you can knock off the excess. I'd seen that done on some "universal" parts back when I was a landlord. But those who'd need them full-length would have ring-tailed rods, with a lot of thread showing.

Quentin Hickey · Post by **Quentin Hickey** » 28 Jan 2012 1:27 pm

My hats off to Joe at steelseat.com amd to the folks at GFI for this reason. When I was in the process of ordering my GFI with Al Brisco , they recommended to make me longer pedal rods and legs for my guitar to accomodate my longer legs since I am much taller than the the average bob. Also, Joe is making th fold down legs for my new steelseat.com seat a few inches longer so I can adjust to my taste. I was looking at old pics of JayDee Manness on his website and in one pic, he was sitting at his emmons and it looked like his knees were well above his rump and the body of the emmons was pretty much resting on his lap. Back in the day people just had to put up with it I guess, they finally have realized over the years that players arent just 5'10 anymore

.

Norbert Dengler · Post by **Norbert Dengler** » 28 Jan 2012 1:34 pm

i went to the GFI factory, bob there saw i was a little tall for my guitar. he took my used legs and put on longer new ones for free!

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 28 Jan 2012 3:41 pm

I had a student, who, bought a used Desert Rose SD 10 off of E Bay. The steel was in perfect condition, but, the seller never said it had extended legs and pedal rods. It was, at least, 2 inches taller than my Zum. It made it very difficult to play. I contacted Chuck Back for him and Chuck replaced the legs and rods for NO CHARGE to him at all. Now, that's keeping customers happy, even if they didn't buy from him directly.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 28 Jan 2012 5:53 pm

Ed Fulawka custom fits the guitar to the player by measuring to the top of the knees when the player is seated, and then fits the legs and rods to this measurement. I am hoping to adopt this method in my builds.

For the person who orders a guitar before it is built, I will ask him or her for the knee height and then, with the help of leg-makers like Don Burrows, unique leg length is no problem and very little extra cost for the builder.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Whose problem is this???

Gfi!