The Steel Guitar Forum

I had heard that when Curly did "Wolverton Mountain" he used Pete Drake's setup because Pete was the session producer for "Big Hits On Big Steel" on Columbia Records. Fender later made a Leslie type cabinet that gave that mechanical effect

Been so busy with guitar, I still haven't had a chance to try this little beast on steel. Sounds great with guitar though. 100w into 1x12 with rotating drum. The front is roughly the size of a Deluxe Reverb and only weighs 40lbs.

Russ,
Thanks for the link!

That solo from 2:00-2:30 is great!

A Wah and Leslie, hmm.
Now I wanna try it hah.
Seriously, the trills and stacatto picking is very cool (and convincing)!
He was indeed thinking like an organ player on the steel!
Awesome

Clete

Here is a rack unit from Motion Sound:

I remember playing in a band in the mid 90's and the keyboard player had just bought a little mini leslie. It had the rotating horn, it wasn't a leslie brand. It sounded great. I think it weighed about 25 pounds. Don't remember the brand.

There used to be an electronic device called the "Lester" that had an off and on switch and a switch that controlled the speed of the thing. I have one and haven't used it in years, They had to rename it the "junior" to avoid a lawsuit from the folks at Leslie speakers.

David Hartley wrote:Are you telling me that was a steel?

I would have to see that before I believed that was a steel.

My bets on a hammond organ.

This picture is pretty clear that he played through a Leslie. The picture was posted on Dave Pearlman's facebook page. Maybe he could confirm.

Click ~> HERE to hear.

Okay, this clip is for Poco fans only. It's a French pop music show from 1972 with a 30 minute chunk of live video of Cotton/Schmidt line up.

You can see Rusty's Leslie cab in the beginning and hear the organ sound on a bunch of tunes. Skip to 16:58 and at 17:27 to hear Rusty's (under-mic'ed!?!) faux-banjo lick on steel and then he also does the piano triplet stuff on the end of the tunes starting at 17:48 (listen very closely...) much better audio is on the version on Poco's first album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoY_3IKUA60

Yes, Rusty used a wah pedal plus a real Leslie. He really, really worked the Leslie speed changes, ramp up and down and the judicious wah pedal settings expertly.

As mentioned before, with today's technology you can do better with a EH POG (poly octave generator--the various octave siders work almost like Hammond drawbars) and a rotary pedal.

One of the original units with the mechanical Leslie style wheel was the CORD-O-VOX, originally marketed for accordion, but later used by steel players, including the album by Chalker.

I've got a bunch of the foam wheels, in case anyone want's to build their own. If you're looking for that Jimmy Smith sound, use some amp trem/vib to emulate the cabinet vibrato in a Hammond. Jimmy used that along with his Leslie most of the time.

I've used real Leslies and several types of effects pedals, comparing the sounds head-to head. The "Leslie" sound is actually many different sounds, from the stationary speaker aimed through a rotating baffle with a counter-rotating horn with any of several designs (these are the big wooden "furniture" types intended for home use...like the 122... with C-3's or church use with B-3's, which have a "privacy" wooden screen across the front.) to single-speaker/baffle units in a smaller, portable cabinet intended for guitar use (more in a sec) to non-Leslie made actual spinning speakers or small speakers at the end of rotating arms (made by Hammond).

Hammond *hated* Leslie. They felt their tube-amp "tremolo" was enough, but finally gave in and created the small-speaker spinning arm system that fit inside the organ cabinet or in an extension cabinet.

The smaller units - specifically, the Leslie 18 (12" speaker), 16 (10" speaker) and Fender's Vibratone (identical to the Leslie 16) all use an on-off and fast-slow sped control dual footswitch (which looks like a Fender amp reverb/"vibrato" footswitch), wired to a special harness and crossover.

The guitar amp's speaker plug was unplugged from the jack on the back of the amp and plugged into the crossover network (which was a 6" long black tube), an Amphenol plug went to the Leslie/Vibratone (which contained more of the crossover circuitry - but no amplifier) and a 1/4 plug wen to the amp's speaker jack.

When off all sound goes to the guitar amp's speakers. When the footswich activates the Leslie (which is AC powered , with the foam baffle already spinning at whatever the last speed was when turned off) , the crossover sends the highs and lows to the guitar amp speakers and the midrange frequencies to the Leslie, with the baffle exposed through grill cloth on the top and both sides (not the front.). The speed switch selects high or low, and depending on how well-maintained and adjusted the unit is the speed goes up fairly slowly and down (through a padded friction brake) a little more quickly. Learning to "play" the sped switch is the real key.

Many units over the years have had 1/4 jacks installed and are just used as switchable 2-speed extension cabinets - the sound is nowhere near the same, with the crossover creating an illusion of huge space even in small clubs/rooms. Replacement crossovers/switches are made by a couple companies and highly recommended if the original is gone.

The 18, 16 and Vibratone (the reason for the 16 & Vibratone similarity is that Leslie and Fender were both CBS companies) usually sound less harsh with guitar/pedal steel than the organ-type, as the horn and lack of crossover makes for some nasty upper mids and treble frequencies. They're also far more portable - the wooden models were actually never intended for gigging.

You can find used 16's and Vibratones with harnesses for $500-900, and if you're really into the sound they are the only way to go (I just bought my 16 back from the guy I sold it to about 7 years ago).

The speakers are crap - really bad model Utahs - and a speaker change is pretty much mandatory (the Weber California 10 ceramic is seemingly the most popular choice - great sound, tons of headroom and 100 watts power handling). Service/maintenance manuals can be found online, or I have a copy. They usually need some adjustment/alignment/lubrication if bought used. They're about 1.5x the size of a Twin Reverb, so they're not for everyone - but man, do they sound incredible.

As far as pedals - The Line 6 Rotomachine has two wooden Leslie and a 16 model and works very well - you don't get the same spaciousness as real one, but it sounds more like a recorded version. The Boss RT20 is large and more "wooden-model" like, but has a ton of adjustments (both can be used in stereo). The old Arion SCH-1 Chorus (NOT the newer SCZ-1) has a great Leslie 16 sound on the slowest setting. There are a bunch of others, some good, some awful (avoid the Danelectro Rocky Road like the plague!!!) but those two are the most prevalent, with multi-effcts pedals with Leslie patches following.

The real king of floor pedals is the long-discontinued Korg G4. You can adjust it between horn and hornless sounds, it has a variable boost switch, the ramping is very realistic and it has a memory function for saving your preferred setting. It beats every other pedal (I've tried dozens) hands down - the only downsides are it's large (about 10"x8") and the plastic-mounted jacks can break. Used they run about $3-500 and are worth every cent IMO.

Well, that's probably more than anyone wanted to know!!

PS - Sneaky Pete used a Phase 90 mounted inside his guitar with a large toggle switch; that's what you hear on most Burritos stuff and Jackson Browne's version of Take it Easy, an incredible steel song. Later he added a Boss Chorus mounted under the apron (I'd started mounting 4 pedals - distortion, tremolo, Phase 90 and analog delay - upside-down on my 400 before I knew he did!). At times he also used a Mutron BiPhase, a rare dual phase shifter...but the 90 was his most-used effect (except for using delay instead of reverb).

David Hartley wrote:I wonder if there's Leslie FX floor pedals?
I wonder if it would sound as 'hammondy' as the Leslie cab?
I remember my dad used to play hammomnd in the band and cart around the Leslie cabinet too. There's one on eBay for 400 pounds at the moment.
That is very clever styling his picking and blocking to match the playing of a keyboard.
Is there any YouTube footage of poco and the steel player?

There is an electronic box called the Ventilator which is about the best Leslie simulator on the market.

Jim,
The rotors that I have are the foam ones that were built inside of some Hammond models. Strangely, they mounted them vertically. They sound much better in a cab that mounts them horizontally. Same as the Fenders I think. They work just fine with a 12" speaker.

John Billings wrote:Jim,
The rotors that I have are the foam ones that were built inside of some Hammond models. Strangely, they mounted them vertically. They sound much better in a cab that mounts them horizontally. Same as the Fenders I think. They work just fine with a 12" speaker.

Actually the Vibratone sound is with the rotor vertical and the foam variety over the wood.

As far as the speaker, the 10" 4 ohm original is the preferred "Vibratone" tone for guitar although some swap them out for other brands. The Leslie 18 has the 12". The Vibratone has a crossover circuit built into a sealed tube that runs along the cables as the speaker system is designed to be used with an external amp and accompanying stationary speaker.

Point of interest, the horizontal position rotors lend themselves to a sustaining sound like organ while the vertical rotor position lends itself to guitar. But since psg sustains, sounds similar to an organ. a horizontal rotor might accentuate the psg. That being said, you can lay down the Vibratone so that the rotor is horizontal for psg, and for guitar, stand it upright.

Jim Hird wrote:

David Hartley wrote:I wonder if there's Leslie FX floor pedals?

There is an electronic box called the Ventilator which is about the best Leslie simulator on the market.

There are several. The Neo Vent, the Strymon Lex, the GSi Burn. Leslie also makes one and so does DLS Roto Sim. Tech 21 has the Roto Choir. The original Vent has been phased out while other models are launched like the Mini Vent.

Here is the Strymon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8lvxdTNTis

Here is the Leslie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXfz_NdHY_c

Here's the DLS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlRP30DeiA4

The Tech 21 Roto Choir:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BT1ExmPTWY

These units are not cheap but offer much adjustment features as far as rotor animation ramp up/down, mic proximity as so forth. while organists are picky as to sound and rotor ramps, guitars may prove to be less of a hassle.

You would need to judge for yourselves.

Jim Sliff wrote:(snip) The speed switch selects high or low, and depending on how well-maintained and adjusted the unit is the speed goes up fairly slowly and down (through a padded friction brake) a little more quickly. Learning to "play" the sped switch is the real key.

Jim, I've never found a friction brake in a Leslie... my direct experience is limited to the Fender Vibratone, 21H, and 720 models... the acceleration difference seemed to be caused by the way the slow motor works, since it engages a rubber-edged wheel on the fast motor it takes over quickly, but when it drops out the lower torque fast motor has to ramp up as best it can. The 21H has an electric brake with only one speed (fast) or off. The tension on the cloth-covered rubber drive belt can set some of the accel-decel as well.

And I agree about playing the switch... that's where the magic is. We took off the half-moon switch and put a micro-switch on the side of the volume pedal... much easier to work when both hands are busy.

TrekII makes lots of Hammond-Leslie retrofits... one product of interest to us here is their Combo Pedal, it's like the old Leslie combo pedal but supports just about all models of Leslie instead of being model-specific.

http://www.trekii.com/UC1A.html

This allows you to plug anything with a 1/4" jack into most Leslies.

Stephen Cowell wrote: Jim, I've never found a friction brake in a Leslie... my direct experience is limited to the Fender Vibratone, 21H, and 720 models... the acceleration difference seemed to be caused by the way the slow motor works, since it engages a rubber-edged wheel on the fast motor it takes over quickly, but when it drops out the lower torque fast motor has to ramp up as best it can. The 21H has an electric brake with only one speed (fast) or off. The tension on the cloth-covered rubber drive belt can set some of the accel-decel as well.

What is being called a "friction brake" is the rubber "tire" that is connected to the shaft of the fast motor. It is not so much a "brake" as it is a "drive wheel" to turn the rotor in chorale mode which is connected to the shaft of the fast motor assembly. This is a fibre wheel with a replaceable rubber tire, like a giant "O" ring, so that the spindle of the slow motor can come down or come up depending on which rotor, top or bottom on a two rotor model is referred to, engaging the slow motor while the fast motor shuts off. It's actually two motors stacked on top of the other. For those in 220 volt areas you will need to change the pulleys on these motors to compensate for 50hz as they are set of 60hz.

The Fender Vibratone. Leslie 16, 18, have the same dual stack motor, fast and slow, with the same rubber tire to achieve fast (tremolo) or slow (chorale).

On the Vibratone et al, you can switch the motors off for the single foam rotor to come to a stop.

The pulley is where the belt attaches with grooves for different speeds but only for the top treble rotor. The bottom rotor motor set has only a one speed pulley. The Vibratone and it's brethren only have the single groove rotor pulley. The picture of a top rotor motor is courtesy of Rick at Tonewheel General Hospital.








You can see the slow motor spindle as it rubs up against the rubber tire. When the Leslie is switched to fast, the slow motor turns off and the spindle retracts with special weighted springs for the up retract or the down retract of the spindle's action.

These motor stacks need alignment adjustments to get the slow motor spindle to touch the tire and be able to retract at the proper angle and degree. But if the parts are in good condition, the adjustments will hold for years depending on how much of a speed switcher you are.



This is what the pulley looks like peeking out of a Vibratone single foam rotor. Note the wingnut for adjusting belt tension on the rotor. It just moves the whole motor assembly a few millimeters:




The 720 is odd in that it has two slow motors and only one fast.

The 21 H has only one speed which is fast, there is no slow motor as that was designed to be tremolo only, or just stopped (brake). Jazz artists are known to prefer the stopped setting.

What is referred to an "electric brake" is merely an off switch within the circuit coming off the Leslie amp within the speaker which controls the switching of the motors through switches located at the organ for which it was designed, and the multi-pin Leslie cable which go anywhere from 5,6,9 pins to the now modern 11 pin.


A Fender Vibratone or Leslie 16, 18, has no amp and is a speaker only, needing an external amp. The rotor speed switching is controlled by dedicated cables and power switches.



The motors within a Leslie are 117 volts AC hence caution is needed when dealing with these voltages specially if they are directed to a foot pedal and you are handling other instruments plugged into AC.

There are modern low voltage switching circuits available that use relays to keep 117 volts out of the foot switch if you are a DIY guy/gal doing the Vibratone clone, a single foam rotor salvaged from a spinet organ or you have a Vibratone, Leslie 16, 18, missing the power and switch cables.

This photo is courtesy of Marc from Fishsticks.



For the DIY, you will want your donor rotor to look like this complete with the motors and make sure you get the ones with 2 speeds. These donors come with an 8" speaker but you can also swap them out for a 10" JBL or other brand suitable for heavy guitar tones. Check that the rotor is not spinning too much out of round and if the rotor is not damaged. You will see some rotor bumps and dents as normal specially if some gold finder dug one out of an organ for resale on eBay. The foam model is "the" tone for Vibratone vs the all wood rotors.



The electrical codes in the days these Leslie units were made were not as refined as they are today. Hammond tried his best to keep Leslies, then a separate company, from being attached to his consoles, and re-engineered his keyboards to make it difficult for Leslie connections, banning them from his dealers so work-arounds were necessary and were done in the back rooms off the Hammond dealer showrooms. Later on Hammond and Leslie were bought by Suzuki of Japan.

Although it is against the electrical code for audio and AC to go through the same cable as in the Leslie cable, this out of code issue was grandfathered in within the modern code. And you can't run these cables through a wall or through a floor as it is against code.

Depending on which Leslie model used, the internal amp has a brake circuit to where an extra wire with a switch is run from the player's position (usually at the organ rail) to shut the motors off to create the stopped effect. Modern switching relays are now made by Trek which can handle the chorale-tremulant-stopped effect with one Leslie cable instead of the previous cable and extra brake wire which were both connected to a three position switch at the rail, while most switching is only two position for those that don't want the stopped feature. Hence there are two versions of the Leslie switch. A two position and a three position switch.

These switches are for organ use.






With the specific Trek relay for Leslie amplifiers, you can have all 3 motor positions including "coast" which bypasses the Leslie's normal feature from going to chorale first before coming to a stop. By flicking the switch to the chorale position for a split second and then going to the "stop" position on the Leslie switch, you can create the "coast" feature which allows the rotors to spin down naturally by gravity.

This model relay is made for a retrofit inside a Leslie amplifier replacing the stock mechanical relay and must be done by a qualified tech.

Courtesy of Michael at Trek ii:






There are parts available for Leslies through many sources and for the more popular models.

Keep in mind the older Leslie units from the 60's and 70's are the most desired.

never was really an organ fan myself so i didn't seek out the sound. however i remember playing through a homemade leslie in a guys band room in san jose in the 70's. it was kind of tall and would rock back and forth as the innards spun.

i'm still trying to get a steel sound out of my steel.

Godfrey Arthur wrote:(snip)
What is referred to an "electric brake" is merely an off switch within the circuit coming off the Leslie amp within the speaker which controls the switching of the motors through switches located at the organ for which it was designed, and the multi-pin Leslie cable which go anywhere from 5,6,9 pins to the now modern 11 pin.

In the 21H and other similar ('Tallboys') there actually is a brake... you run DC into the motor and it stops in a hurry. When the selenium rectifiers are iffy, the motor 'creeps' in an interesting way. If you want the long slowdown (like we did) you pull the thermal relay out of the socket.

Stephen Cowell wrote:

Godfrey Arthur wrote:(snip)
What is referred to an "electric brake" is merely an off switch within the circuit coming off the Leslie amp within the speaker which controls the switching of the motors through switches located at the organ for which it was designed, and the multi-pin Leslie cable which go anywhere from 5,6,9 pins to the now modern 11 pin.

In the 21H and other similar ('Tallboys') there actually is a brake... you run DC into the motor and it stops in a hurry. When the selenium rectifiers are iffy, the motor 'creeps' in an interesting way. If you want the long slowdown (like we did) you pull the thermal relay out of the socket.

Yes, there was a "stop" feature. The word "brake" might sound like a car brake to some, as it was a motor controlled device, not something that physically stopped the rotors like car brakes that grab the spinning mass. That makes sense which sounds like it slowed down the fast motor rather than allowing the rotor to coast. The latest pro leslies have a device that stops the rotors so that the rotors always face out towards the listener/mic rather than a roulette wheel approach. How they managed to achieve that, I have no clue.

There were add-on brakes for the later models that fit in the 4 or 5 pin brake socket. The 21H has that same socket but I don't know for what it was used. The 21H's brake was part of the circuit built-in.

Leslie had some different designs over the years with the amps.

Then there were these:









I had this for a 122. I took the tube relay out and just jumpered the wire to get the coast effect.The cable on the end of this went to the leslie switch at the organ which needed to be a 3 position variety.

I knew I bought my old Hammond and 122 for something other than warping floor joists.

Tom Gorr wrote:I knew I bought my old Hammond and 122 for something other than warping floor joists.

Now I know I'm not alone.

Here are my latest additions for the Leslie sound:

Erv Niehaus wrote:Here are my latest additions for the Leslie sound:

Erv, how is the Leslie-made unit? Easy to operate out of the box?