The Steel Guitar Forum

"I Am Thinking Tonight Of My Blue Eyes" originally recorded 1929 by The Carter Family (composer credit given to A.P. Carter)
"The Great Speckled Bird" c. 1936 Roy Acuff (music), Guy Smith (lyrics)
"The Wild Side Of LIfe" c.1951 Arlie A. Carter & William Warren
"It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels" c. 1952 J.D. Miller

Brint Hannay wrote:

Alvin Blaine wrote:

Joe Miraglia wrote:May I Sleep In Your Barn Tonight Mister-or-Red River Valley. Now who gets the Royality check?

You can add the Tommy Duncan & Bob Wills song "Time Changes Everything" to that list. It's just a swing version of Red River Valley.

Got to say, I don't hear that.

I don't know a way to post the quite different melody lines, but even progression-wise:

Red River Valley
1-5-1-1
1-1-5-5
1-17-4-4
5-5-1-1

Time Changes Everything
1-1-5-5
5-5-1-1
1-17-4-4
1-5-1-1

The first two lines are so different that they can hardly be called the same tune, IMO.

I think maybe Alvin was referring to the melodies rather than the chord progressions of those songs, which are VERY similar, IMO.

There ya go Scott,

Thats exactly what I was thinkin'of although I forgot about the rest ,of course ,it all comes back to me now ! thanks Scott for the knowledge.....

Lol Dale, I got no hobbies. And there's no tellin where A.P. got the song from in the first place.

Scott Shipley wrote:I think maybe Alvin was referring to the melodies rather than the chord progressions of those songs, which are VERY similar, IMO.

Scott--

Obviously this is no big deal, and reasonable minds may differ.

It's not clear to me from your wording whether you mean the progressions or the melodies are very similar.

As to the progressions, I feel that
Tonic-Dominant-Tonic-Tonic
Tonic-Tonic-Dominant-Dominant
(RRV lines 1 & 2)

has a substantially different feel from
Tonic-Tonic-Dominant-Dominant
Dominant-Dominant-Tonic-Tonic
(TCE lines 1 & 2)

And while the melodies are rhythmically quite similar (adjusted to similar tempos), their melodic contours after the first three identical notes seem pretty distinct to me. As I said, JMO.

Sorry Brint, I was meanin that theory side, the melodies of "Red River Valley" and "Time Changes Everything" are very similar. I think that may be what Alvin was sayin too.

You say potato, I say potato.

George Harrison got sued because the melody to his "My Sweet Lord" was same as "He's So Fine" by the Chiffons.
http://www.abbeyrd.net/mysweet.htm

Scott Shipley wrote:Sorry Brint, I was meanin that theory side, the melodies of "Red River Valley" and "Time Changes Everything" are very similar. I think that may be what Alvin was sayin too.

You say potato, I say potato.

A while back I loaded an MP3 player with the "Take Me Back To Tulsa" box set, and one day those two songs played back to back. The Bob Wills version of "Red River Valley" followed by "Time Changes Everything", with the way they played those two songs, and Tommy singing, it could work as the same song.

Using time I should have spent practicing , I have determined that, with both Red River Valley and Time Changes Everything placed in the same key, and with both considered for ease of terminology to be in 4/4 time (I think they probably would be better written in 2/4), both melodies are on the same note only 18 beats out of 66 (16 bars of 4/4 plus two pickup notes). The two melodies are on different notes 72% of the time. (Actually, there are a few beats of rest, so make that 70% of the time.)

Granted, with Bob Wills arrangement and Tommy Duncan singing, the two songs are kissin' cousins!

"...you can change the words of an old song, rearrange it and make it swing...'

I almost forgot to mention what is,no doubt, the number one song with the most parodies. It has got to be " On Top Of Old Smokey". I bet Homer and Jethro got in on the act here.
There was also an old Bluegrass Gospel song, "Thirty Pieces of Silver", and of course the children's parody,"On top of Spagetti".

I always tell my students that it's hard to come up with an original chord change. What you copyright is the lyrics. The only way to come up with a truly original chord change is to do something really weird and ugly.

George Harrison got sued (rightfully, in my opinion) because he had the same chords, same tune, same backup vocal parts, and same groove as The Chiffons, just different lyrics.

But if the tune is slightly different and the arrangement is slightly different, then new lyrics make a new song out of an old chord change. Look at how many twelve-bar blues songs have been copyrighted! (In country, rockabilly, and rock as well as blues!) That has to be the most recorded chord change of the 20th century, which means of all time...

Brint Hannay wrote:Using time I should have spent practicing , I have determined that, with both Red River Valley and Time Changes Everything placed in the same key, and with both considered for ease of terminology to be in 4/4 time (I think they probably would be better written in 2/4), both melodies are on the same note only 18 beats out of 66 (16 bars of 4/4 plus two pickup notes). The two melodies are on different notes 72% of the time. (Actually, there are a few beats of rest, so make that 70% of the time.)

Granted, with Bob Wills arrangement and Tommy Duncan singing, the two songs are kissin' cousins!

Not to be argumentative, but, both songs are definitely played in 2/4. If you played either in 4/4, you most likely would not be asked back to the gig.


Given that there are only twelve notes in the scale, only seven songs in the whole world, and of course only one Bob Wills (of course), I think eighteen notes in common out of a possible twenty is more than enough to say without reservation, that the melodies of said songs are indeed melodies, and good'erns at that.

Scott Shipley wrote:Not to be argumentative, but, both songs are definitely played in 2/4. If you played either in 4/4, you most likely would not be asked back to the gig.

Brint Hannay wrote:both considered for ease of terminology to be in 4/4 time (I think they probably would be better written in 2/4)

(emphases added)
By "ease of terminology" I meant "for purposes of clarity of discussion". I just didn't want to have to refer to "half-beats" in counting the notes for discussion!

Seriously, though (that is, as serious as any of this is ), if the phrases of two melodies start and/or end on different notes, and move at different places, in different directions and/or different distances, and their notes at a given point don't coincide (with them both in the same key) most of the time, similarity of general flavor doesn't make them similar melodies. Otherwise the copyright office would be drowned in legal wrangles over all those blues songs (and a lot of country songs).

Scott Shipley wrote:the melodies of said songs are indeed melodies, and good'erns at that.

Boy howdy!

OK,they aren't exactly country,but Chuck Berry got a piece(after some lawyering)of The Beach Boys' "Surfin'USA",because of that tune's similarity to "Sweet Little Sixteen".
My favorite,though is Grand Funk's "We're an American Band" and Dr. Laura's theme "I've Got a New Attitude".
As well as:
"Hello Darlin'
How'd things go for you today?"

EDIT:Lester "Roadhog" Moran AND the Statler Brothers both did excellent versions of that last tune.

Brint Hannay wrote:

Scott Shipley wrote:Not to be argumentative, but, both songs are definitely played in 2/4. If you played either in 4/4, you most likely would not be asked back to the gig.

Brint Hannay wrote:both considered for ease of terminology to be in 4/4 time (I think they probably would be better written in 2/4)

(emphases added)
By "ease of terminology" I meant "for purposes of clarity of discussion". I just didn't want to have to refer to "half-beats" in counting the notes for discussion!

Seriously, though (that is, as serious as any of this is ), if the phrases of two melodies start and/or end on different notes, and move at different places, in different directions and/or different distances, and their notes at a given point don't coincide (with them both in the same key) most of the time, similarity of general flavor doesn't make them similar melodies. Otherwise the copyright office would be drowned in legal wrangles over all those blues songs (and a lot of country songs).

Scott Shipley wrote:the melodies of said songs are indeed melodies, and good'erns at that.

Boy howdy!

I like both kinds, Country AND Western. Actually, to me, IMHINQO, some of today's Country songs actually sound similar to melodies.

Connie Smith has "Just Let Me Know" that is very close to "Undo The Right" by Johnny Bush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYBujAGKWwU

Leon McAuliffe's "Steel Guitar Rag" and Sylvester Weaver's (much earlier) "Guitar Rag".

"Drivin' Nails In My Coffin" c.1946 words & music by Jerry Irby
&
"Belshazar" c.1957 words & music by J.R. Cash


"The 8th Of January" fiddle tune, public domain
&
"The Battle Of New Orleans" written by Jimmy Driftwood, originally recorded in 1958

My Sweet Lord & He's So Fine. The court ruled it "unconscious plagiarism.

Restless- Carl Perkins, Milk cow blues- Rick Nelson
The chord sequences at the beginning before they differ:
Yesterday- Beatles, She- Gram Parsons
It's only love- Beatles, Lay lady lay- Bob Dylan

"When Johnny Comes Marching Home" and speeded up years later, "Ghost Riders In The Sky".

Many Christmas carols [both the serious and the fun ones] overlap each other. Sometimes I start playing the other song.

CCR-
Have You Ever Seen Who'll Stop The Rain.

"Black Girl"....first published 1917 by Cecil Sharp (who died in 1924, making it public domain)
"In The Pines"....recorded 1926 by Dock Walsh
"Rolling Mill Blues"....recorded 1929 by Peg Leg Howell
"Grave In The Pines"....recorded 1930 by Clayton McMitchen
"In The Pines"....recorded 1938 by Arthur Smith
"In The Pines"....recorded 1941 by Bill Monroe
"Black Girl"....recorded 1944 by Huddie Leadbetter

And on and on and on.....


"Defence of Fort McHenry" aka "The Star Spangled Banner"....written in 1814 by Francis Scott Key (to the tune of "The Anacreontic Song" published in 1778 by John Stafford Smith, original words written by Ralph Tomlinson, Esq.)

"The Anacreontic Song"
abridged
To ANACREON in Heav'n, where he sat in full Glee,
A few Sons of Harmony sent a Petition,
That He their Inspirer and Patron wou'd be;
When this Answer arriv'd from the JOLLY OLD GRECIAN
"Voice, Fiddle, and Flute, "No longer be mute,
"I'll lend you my Name and inspire you to boot,
"And, besides, I'll instruct you like me, to intwine
"The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS's Vine.

As Sung at the Crown and Anchor Tavern in the Strand

Scott Shipley wrote:"Black Girl"....first published 1917 by Cecil Sharp (who died in 1924, making it public domain)
"In The Pines"....recorded 1926 by Dock Walsh
"Rolling Mill Blues"....recorded 1929 by Peg Leg Howell
"Grave In The Pines"....recorded 1930 by Clayton McMitchen
"In The Pines"....recorded 1938 by Arthur Smith
"In The Pines"....recorded 1941 by Bill Monroe
"Black Girl"....recorded 1944 by Huddie Leadbetter

And on and on and on.....


"Defence of Fort McHenry" aka "The Star Spangled Banner"....written in 1814 by Francis Scott Key (to the tune of "The Anacreontic Song" published in 1778 by John Stafford Smith, original words written by Ralph Tomlinson, Esq.)

"The Anacreontic Song"
abridged
To ANACREON in Heav'n, where he sat in full Glee,
A few Sons of Harmony sent a Petition,
That He their Inspirer and Patron wou'd be;
When this Answer arriv'd from the JOLLY OLD GRECIAN
"Voice, Fiddle, and Flute, "No longer be mute,
"I'll lend you my Name and inspire you to boot,
"And, besides, I'll instruct you like me, to intwine
"The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCHUS's Vine.

As Sung at the Crown and Anchor Tavern in the Strand

I think the "Star Spangled Banner" is in kind of a different category, because Francis Scott Key wrote it as a poem then years later his cousin published it, as a song, sung to the tune of a pub drinking song "The Anacreontic".

Also the "8th Of January" and "Battle Of New Orleans" could be another category of songs with the same melody and about the same event.