The Dead - You really had to be there.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 24 Mar 2010 8:47 am

I've heard countless Steel players carry on about Jerry Garcia. I think many Steel players don't like Jerry because it just chaps their hide to no end that he played the single most popular Steel ride ever played on the air worldwide to this day, on CSN's "Teach Your Children Well".
fwiw, Paul Franklin does a nice job of covering Jerry Garcia's steel parts on that hit song.
I've heard Buddy Emmons was asked if could play "more like Jerry Garcia" on a session, back in the day when TYCW was first released.
Gotta Love it!

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 24 Mar 2010 10:12 am

"Absolutely NO instrumental skills, pitch crazy toneless voices, and the most insipid songs ever put to vinyl

I think many, including myself, would disagree with that sentiment, but to each his own.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 24 Mar 2010 11:22 am

James Allison wrote:WORST band ever!!! Having a personal connect to the band, I had the much sought after "All Access" pass and was forced to attend countless shows. If I was lucky, I'd be able to sneak out before the music started. Absolutely NO instrumental skills, pitch crazy toneless voices, and the most insipid songs ever put to vinyl. And to top it off, not exactly the nicest people you'd ever meet probably because they believed all their press.........

As the popular expression goes, "don't hold anything back, tell us how you really feel!"

Wow, James! Sounds like like a session with a therapist is in order regarding your relationship with the Dead. Is there more going on here than meets the eye, or what we read in your post? "Forced" to attend countless shows. Were you an employee of Bill Graham's at the time, or something along those lines so that you weren't allowed to leave? I have been around no shortage of anti-Dead folks over the years, but I don't believe I have ever read anything quite as negative and vitriolic as your post about the band.

Have you ever had this discussion on how bad they were with some folks that would play with them like Ornette Coleman, Branford Marsalis, or Bruce Hornsby? Or do you think it was strictly a mercenary act by those guest musicians to get some mindless Deadhead drones to buy some of their own albums?

James Allison · Post by **James Allison** » 25 Mar 2010 8:25 am

Wow Mark, I actually don't hold anything back and the truth often offends. I'm honored that you would use the word vitriolic when replying to my opinion since there are so few opportunities for it's proper usage. To imply that I need therapy because i don't agree with your musical tastes makes you the fool. Maybe therapy would be more beneficial to some one that has no tolerance for a difference of opinion. My use of the word "forced" was tongue in cheek but you so obviously lack a sense of humor you couldn't see that. And yes I have worked for promoters, sound companies and stage rigging though I choose not to name or involve them in this stupid debate. In regards to Ornette, Branford, and Bruce I've only met Bruce. I have no idea what their motivations were and unlike you, who apparently has the mind reading capabilities to know they were artistic and altruistic. Another forum member wrote that he and a number of other people disagreed with me but he didn't feel the need to attack me personally. I suspect that you have more than one issue that needs to be addressed. There's room for all musical tastes including mine and yours

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 25 Mar 2010 9:31 am

Worst band ever...
this statement is just ridiculous!

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 25 Mar 2010 10:07 am

My goodness, I seemed to have incurred a serious dose of wrath here!

James, I certainly didn't intend to inspire such a heated response, and I apologize if I offended you. It is why I opened my previous post with what has become a popular phrase followed by a little winking guy, but since we are not sitting across from each other having a beer and munching on pretzels in a bar, and you didn't use any emoticons or descriptors to elaborate on your use of the word "forced," how is anyone supposed to determine that it is tongue-in-cheek, keeping in mind the overall tone of your post? I don't know how you could make the sweeping determination that I lack a sense of humor and of course should be called a fool any more than I could determine that your tongue was in your cheek referring to the above.

Does any one else wonder if James' scathing assessment of the Dead was a little over-the-top or am I truly the only "fool" in the room? The worst band ever - you literally can't get any worse than that, can you?

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 25 Mar 2010 11:37 am

Did you guys eat the brown acid?

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 25 Mar 2010 11:40 am

The brown acid can defintely play havoc with one's sense of humor...

Tim Herbert · Post by **Tim Herbert** » 25 Mar 2010 12:01 pm

Sorry, the Dead couldn't be the worst band ever - I happened to have played in the one that was.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 25 Mar 2010 12:47 pm

Tim, your not alone. Me too (not for long).

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 25 Mar 2010 2:02 pm

Mark Eaton wrote:Does any one else wonder if James' scathing assessment of the Dead was a little over-the-top or am I truly the only "fool" in the room? The worst band ever - you literally can't get any worse than that, can you?

There's plenty of evidence that they were a great band that didn't showcase those abilities to the utmost on a constant basis. So maybe James just had the bad luck to miss the good ones, just like me with Led Zep. 25 + Cali LZ shows and most were not all that spectacular, but some certainly were.
It took me decades to discover great Dead stuff, but it's there.

Steve Hitsman · Post by **Steve Hitsman** » 25 Mar 2010 5:23 pm

Worst band ever... hands down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shaggs

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 2 Apr 2010 4:41 pm

First of all, it's my distinct opinion that if you remember it you weren't there

Kevin wrote:

I think that parts of it were naive and the drugs were down right self destuctive. Its a different generation now, and looking back I have some fond memories of boogying to those San Fransisco bands. It was a more innocent time. A more compassionate time. A very artistic time. With age brings wisdom.

We paved the way for what there is now

Good or bad, more gooder or more badder (For Herb S.

)

Truckin' and Casey Jones always put me back to undergrad in 1973-4-5. Whilst listening to "Truckin'", on the radio, whilst drivng back to school one day we saw the most beautiful rainbow.

Music messes with your mind. The Dead, to me, hold their place as a point in time joy.

Joe Yednasty · Post by **Joe Yednasty** » 25 Feb 2011 10:54 am

Bill Hatcher - What bands or musicians do you like?

James Allison - Voicing your difference in opinion is not a bad thing at all. My only question is why do you spend your time reading threads about things you hate?

To all the positive folks out there, check these two shows from the great year of 1974:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-0 ... eok.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-0 ... eok.flac16

.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 25 Feb 2011 11:28 am

Whoa - thread bashflack...

Say it likes I alway, "if you 60's weren't, remember can!"

And Jerry G. on guitar in a '72 -'74 "Dark Star" could torch your little booties, kids.

http://stash.nugs.net/attics/731111_mp3 ... &cmd=shows

(you can fast-forward through the clips to reach "Dark Star" - among the many other innovations, the Dead were the first to perfect taking vacations while on stage - it's become an industry standard.)

EDIT FLASH! - DON'T skip through this one, Jerry's all torchy throughout. For such a "hippie" his solos have a coherence to them unmatched by few. I don't even like some of these songs and he drills 'em.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 25 Feb 2011 12:54 pm

I like Bob Weir's guitar work on the Dark Star track.
Perfect!

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 25 Feb 2011 7:03 pm

Knowing they were an entire lifestyle that would consume and distract, I purposely avoided the Dead until just before Jerry's death, while also knowing their shows were recorded endlessly and would be available forever.
Never wanted to be a fan, but once I listened to this CD http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Dead-Bal ... B0002VETJK I knew why there were legions of die hards. The playing thruout is superb and the (((vibe))) between all the members is astounding. Jerry and Bob really had that unearthly telepathic connection going this nite, plus it contains the best Loser I've ever heard, but that can be said for every track.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Feb 2011 8:53 am

Ron,

I was at that show leaning on the stage. Tye dyed amps and women dancing. It was pretty wild. The long feedback section during "The Other One" opened up my 13 year old ears. I loved that time in my life but when I listen back to some of the shows I thought were amazing as a kid I find that the music doesn't stand the test of time. I saw a pile of shows around then. By 75 they could barely play anymore. It was sad to see Garcia noodling around in a major scale while he nodded out when he had been such a musical force.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 26 Feb 2011 9:51 am

There were hints of heroin use a whole lot earlier than most people realize - when your friends are David Crosby & the Allman Brothers, well... After their first "retirement" in 1974 it really seemed to sink in it's teeth. (Hint: keep busy...) They tried to keep John Kahn & other dealers away from Garcia, and they still had flashes of brilliance - some '77 shows are great - but the die was set. After Garcia died the first time in 1985, there was nothing left for me at least. They propped him up on stage for another decade because the money was piling in - touring with his personal "doctor" and all. It was an icky end.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 26 Feb 2011 9:54 am

Bob, What exactly does "the music doesn't stand the test of time" actually mean?
If that is just your opinion, no problem, but reality dictates otherwise.

Every post Jerry original GD member spin off band "sells-out" the concerts they play, playing those same songs, to this day.

Dark Star Orchestra and a host of other GD/Jerry Tribute bands tour continuously, and sell out The Crystal Ballroom every time they are here in Portland.

The JGB with Melvin Seals are here March 11, and DSO April 1.
If the songs don't stand the test of time, how come folks are making a living playing them?

In my travels, the name Jerry Garcia comes up any time I ask folks to name their favorite Banjo, Pedal Steel, and/or Guitar players, not to mention, favorite Song Writer/Arranger.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Feb 2011 10:40 am

Bob, What exactly does "the music doesn't stand the test of time" actually mean?
If that is just your opinion, no problem, but reality dictates otherwise.

Pete,
I am speaking from a purely personal standpoint. When I listen back to those old Dead shows I went to I have a sense of romantic nostalgia but I don't find the actual music to be very good. At the same time I was following the Dead around I was going to the library of congress Julliard String Quartet concerts, Bill Evans, early Weather Report(Miroslav Vitouš period), Charles Ives concerts and my dad would sneak me into bars to see Roy Buchannan and Danny Gatton. I did nothing but seek out any kind of music I could get at as a kid. I could go on for days about all the music and sounds I sought out. I remember the magic of hearing the Bach solo cello suites played by Pierre Fournier at the Kennedy Center. It was so beautiful and changed me forever. I still listen to the cello suites and hear something new and amazing every single time. Where as with the Dead I had the same experience when I first heard them but when I go back to the music there is just not much there for me anymore.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Feb 2011 10:51 am

BTW: I saw maybe 50 Dead shows between 72 and 74. There is a picture of me in the inside flap of the "Steel Your Face" record. I even snuck back stage and watched Garcia practicing pedalsteel alone for a while at one show. He didn't bring it on stage though. I was into it and was there but I must admit that in retrospect many of those shows kinda sucked.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 26 Feb 2011 11:27 am

Being excursionary musicians willing to risk it onstage leads to less than stellar moments or even entire shows, but when they hit it square it's monumental. I'll take risk takers any time. But yes, the heroin took Jerry out of it too much at times, and I tend to not care for much of Weir's parts.

Bob, I fully respect your takes in this thread, you were there, often. All I can go by are after-the-fact recordings, and if that Baltimore show isn't representable of a good nite then I'm ascared to hear one that is! Plus, I tend to judge good test-of-time music by what pops into my head as I diddybop down the road, and some of my fave Dead riffs/sections do.
Looking back, without a pro or con bias, I see lots of merit in their playing, I've become a fan in retrospect and it's only the post '75 stuff that I dig. The Pigpen era doesn't do anything for me. Viva la difference!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 26 Feb 2011 1:07 pm

That's in teresting. For me the Pigpen era represented the real G.D. Raw and stirring. After he left I wasn't as much interested anymore. I will admit listening to the live New Riders shows now with Garcia from that time is painful. Pretty bad. Must've been the drugs.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 26 Feb 2011 4:04 pm

I go thru streaks, but the singing cluelessly off pitch often makes it difficult. Nrps live also has some awful moments. JP