The Steel Guitar Forum

Due to a long period of not being PSG "inspired", I have recently been going back to some VERY basic things, i.e. Jeff Newman's "Up From The Top". While these "rules" are certainly not cast in stone, nor were they intended to be,,,They are a VERY good place to start. I'm amazed at what a clean and pleasant sound when I play along with some of the old rythm tracks. While eating breakfast this morning the radio happened to being playing Hank Thompson's original "Honky Tonk Angels", Micky Gilley's "Standby Me", and a couple more that I don't recall,,,ALL very good examples of what Jeff was advocating. Tell your band leader to let the bass and drums and rythm guitar "draw" the picture,,,,you'll add the color.

Great advice Sonny. If there are bass and drums and the singer is strumming guitar, then that should be enough to "draw the picture" and no other chord filler should be necessary. Other instrumentalists like pedal steel, tele, fiddle, piano, etc. can take turns "adding the color".

And yes, as Joe mentioned, most band leaders and audiences don't like to see anyone sitting idle, so I usually have my volume pedal rolled all the way down and play along for show when it is not my turn to comp or solo.

I realize that Ben is not playing traditional country, so in his case it is very important to explain to the singer and other instrumentalists that you aren't going to be riffing throughout the whole song. For example, maybe you want to only play on the chorus, so tell the other guys that so they know to stay out of your way and let you add your flavor during the chorus without having to compete with another instrument.

I find that it is best to work these things out beforehand rather than just trying to hear it on stage. Sometimes when I am playing with a guitar player that doesn't like to stop and listen I will lay out for a verse and then come in with authority (volume) on the next verse and hope that he hears that it is my turn now. But that is rarely effective. Usually the guitar player keeps rocking along and all I've done is added some inappropriately loud pedal steel to the mix.

Sorry for the rambling posts. I am not a big poster on this forum, but I think this is a very important issue that separates the amateur acts from the pros. Playing in a variety of semi-pro bands, I deal with this to a varying degree depending on who I'm playing with, and I find it very challenging and frustrating to play with people who don't get this concept that everyone doesn't need to be playing all the time.

The more people in the band, the less you need to play. In a large band, I back off the volume pedal and try to avoid making "steel guitar sounds" unless it's my turn to fill or solo. In a trio or quartet, I play a lot more and the steel sound has a constant presence in the mix.

hmmm...maybe I am wanting something that just isnt appropriate for this band then.

Instrumentation is drums, bass, acoustic guitar and me on psg and electric guitar for a song or two.

Many of the standard old traditions inherent with country music bands have faded into obscurity as the newer folks have striven to 'change the face of country music'.

In some instances, this has proven to be confusing for some.....

IN the bands I had the good fortune to play in, we ALWAYS had a fiddle (or two), lead-guitar and steel guitar. Ocassionally an accordian, not often thank goodness!

SOMEONE, anyone really, would kick off a song and we'd merely take our INFORMAL turn in order. Usually the two guitars were seperated by the fiddle during the back-up swing. If a particular song had a difficult structure for one instrument or another.....that musician would merely by passed-over during the rotation to be picked up next time around. NEVER was a problem for anyone.

No one had to memorize anything. That's just the way it was.

Thanks for the insight, Ray. It seems that in those days it was understood that this was the way to play, and that tradition has indeed faded.

Another interesting example is the way that the Buckaroos' studio recordings differed from the live recordings. In the studio Don and Tom Brumley traded comping on verses more or less according to tradition, but live it depended more on when Don was singing. From what I understand he didn't like to have to comp and play fills while he was singing, so Tom would play Don Rich tele licks on the steel while he was singing. What ended up happening sometimes is that Tom would end up playing throughout the whole song and actually trading verses with himself by playing Don Rich signature tele licks for a verse and then his own signature steel licks the next verse and back and forth like that. Someone with a better understanding of the Buckaroos style might have more insight into this, but I think that it proves the point that it was important to have those two different voices trading back and forth even if they were played by the same guy.

Great topic!! Hopefully this will make everyone, especially the newer players take notice to how much they are playing. It's so very easy to over play without even realizing it.

My first instrument, like so many others, was rhythm guitar, then a few years later I added elec. bass. Of course for the most part these play start to finish. When I started learning steel, I guess I was subconsciously programmed to play all the time. I was a couple of years into steel before I started learning this concept of "laying out". It is a very hard habit to break and I never realized how much over playing I was doing until I started trying to "not" play. Once your conscience of it though, it makes you realize how much the other lead players overplay. I wonder how many of them don't know what they are supposed to be doing.

With this being such an important part of playing in a band, it's a shame how few of the weekend players have mastered it. I can share everyone's pain having to put up with those who just rip away start to finish.

I've even tried to play a CD and tell everyone to listen to where your instrument is playing and lets try to play the parts....not necessarily note for note but just play where they played. Before the song is even through the 1st verse, all the lead players are playing all over the vocals and each other as usual. Just makes you want to throw your hands up!

I sometimes wonder if the good bands have a band leader (the bad guy) that insists on who will play when or hit the road. I've heard stories of some hard to deal with band leaders, but they always had a really tight, clean sound.

Hopefully one day I can tell of a band I was in where everyone took turns and had a tight clean sound....it just hasn't happened yet!

Instrumentation is drums, bass, acoustic guitar and me on psg and electric guitar for a song or two.

I play that kind of 3-4 piece format quite a bit, and the demands may indeed be quite different than a typical traditional country band with drums, bass, acoustic guitar, lead guitar, steel guitar, and fiddle. With a lot of things going on comes the concomitant responsibility to respect the requirement to leave space, which makes sense in a country band with 2-4 different potential lead instruments.

But in many musical formats - especially stripped down ones - guitarists are often expected to play both lead/melodic-fill and rhythm/riff-fill roles. I see no reason why both can't be done on steel - rhythmic support is an explicit role in sacred-steel playing.

Back to your question - "How to NOT play?" - just stop playing. When in doubt, just shut up. For those of us coming from a blues or rock and roll background, that can be a hard but important lesson. To me, there are two extremes to this:

1. Default is "playing", and laying out is a conscious and deliberate decision.

2. Default is "not-playing", and playing anything at all is a conscious and deliberate decision.

I think it's important to be comfortable doing either, and know when to apply each, but I guess that's because I like to play a bunch of different musical styles. One of my biggest frustrations with bands is when I disagree with other players' assessments of what is the 'correct' approach, and conversely when a band really clicks, sympatico on this issue is almost always a big part of it.

seriously, Im having trouble laying out.
I guess I lack discipline but also, my band(s) looks at me like I'm nuts when I'm not playing. Sometimes they'll stop the song and ask me whats wrong.

I chuckled when I read that - I'm havin' deja vu all over again. That's just not part of the rock and roll culture, which pervades a helluvalotta music these days. Some folk ensembles are really coming more from the rock and roll culture. I guess "When in Rome" applies. But even if that is true, I think it's a good idea to find some people to play with where a strictly minimalist approach is required, even if it's just to get experience with that. Such people do exist, but in a club scene dominated by thrashing bands, it can be tough to make that kind of ensemble a working proposition these days.

In other words - when the peeps out there in radioland want a lot of constant thrashing, that's what they're gonna get.

Another take.

I started out as a bass player in a rock where I came in on the first beat and played to the end. Learning to layout, and only play when I was adding something to the song, took a lot of discipline. It seems like the more experience I get, the more comfortable I am laying out.

I've played in 3-piece bands where I was the only lead instrument, and it didn't take very long to run out of licks, so I'd try to vary my sound - switch necks, use chorus or some other effect once in a while, forego pedals for a couple solos, strum, use my right hand to get a more biting or a more mellow tone, play different styles (Drake, Mooney, Emmons, Helms). You can come up with some new stuff like that.

Thanks again for all the great comments!

Cal, thats a good idea, I'm trying to do a little of that. I got a dobro sim pedal (boss ge7 aka the Benbro) and use that for one song with some no pedal dobro-ey type licks(oddly Im able to lay out well during that song, maybe cause I know so few dobro licks..hehe).

Dave M. you know exactly what Im talkin a-boot.
I come from the rock stuff, so yeah im used to shredding non stop, and even my bandmates, folky as the band is, are more rock oriented than anythign else. when i started listening to some trad country, I was really struck and surpised by the level of the musicianship, not just the virtuosity, but the restraint and discipline and thoughtfulness, and that was something I wanted to begin to include in my own playing even in a more rock context. One guy that kinda inspires me in this direction and points to a way it can be done in rock is Ben Keiths playing with Neil Young. Theres some songs where he just comes in and drops the hammer, then checks back out, and its so devastating. Albequerque. Dont Be Denied, etc.

Yeah, Ben Keith with Neil is the perfect example - devastating is the correct word. Tell your rockandarolla compadres to STF up and wait for you to come in when you're ready. I agree, it's hard - the temptation is to just play over everything when they're looking for that. And sometimes that's OK - but I struggle with this same thing.

It makes it much easier to lay way back in this type of folk thing if you're working with good players who can cover it without you, but also know how to give you room when you do decide to come in. It means everybody has to be listening - you have to listen for the space, but they have to listen for you and open it up. Egos must be left at the door, not always easy in a rock and roll climate. You may need to whack them over the head a few times to make the point.

If you play cover, you play cover. You know what and when to play.Todays country little steel parts Back when,lots of steel ,and you would love to try to play "Together Again" just like, Tom B. So, todays cover you try to play what Paul Franklin puts on the recordings. Nothings changed, just the music and the amount of playing time a steel gets. I LOVE TO PLAY STEEL GUITAR,do you? So I play whatever comes my way,Something new something old ,something borrowed,something blue. Jamming thats another story,Hay It's my turn to play,no it's not it's my turn I'm packing up my steel and going home Joe

Only one cover Joe. Oceans of Diamonds by Jimmy Martin, no steel on the original recording. I am not the songwriter for these bands, so Im just trying to add something nice to someone elses original songs but I have a few ideas about how to do this in a more powerful and effective way, and i guess I will just tell em what Im about to do so they arent surprised and then consciously make an effort to give it a try and see how it works out.

I played in a 4 piece groups on 2 occassions. One group for 3 year and the other for 4 years. Steel. lead, bass, and drums. If I layed completely out, it left a big hole in the music. So I played chord pads when I wasn,t filling or soloing. In the larger bands, I still played pads, except at a very low volume, so when it came my time to play, I was ready. In the studio, lay completly out until your time to play, unless the producer tells you different. Jody.

Mr Mark Van Allen hit it square on! When I sit in with a band that has no concept of "trading off", I'm not a happy camper. Also I never do any comping. I figure I have drums, bass, and rhythm guitar so where is the need for more rhythm playing? What really irks me is a lead picker who plays fills with his amp on 10 then lays out but continues to play open string chords with the amp still on 10.

Ben,
Jack Muskgrave has a post of a live performance with his band in the "Steel on the Web" section. I feel that it is a fine example of how a Steel Guitar, and Lead Guitar should work together. I made a copy, and sent it to a group that I have been jamming with, hoping they would take the hint.
George...

how a Steel Guitar, and Lead Guitar should work together.

As Herb already said, you can't find a guitar player any better than this then Pete Mitchell. Just wanted to second it.