The Steel Guitar Forum

Name one top steel guitarist that does not use Just Intonation to tune his steel.

Just one ? Ok. Buddy Emmons.
There are lots. And lots. But, of course, that's off topic.

To address the topic, I use a Boss tuner like the one pictured above. The other night I needed a tuner and didn't have one handy, and I found this:
http://www.seventhstring.com/tuner/tuner.html

Pretty darned cool, I think. Just use your computer mic.
- John

John

I watched Buddy Emmons tune back in the mid-70s when I was at Jeff Newman's college. Emmons used a strobe tuner to set his Es and his Cs and then he used the chime method to tune the rest. That IS just intonation tuning.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that he doesn't do that anymore, and hasn't for years. Neither does Weldon Myrick, and never has.
Check the link Roger Rettig posted. For the record, it appears that Roger doesn't either, and neither do I. I could go on naming scores of people who tune ET, but I won't.
By the way, I'm certainly not telling anyone that it's the only way to tune. To each their own.

- John

Well, this topic certainly did get hijacked.

You can tune your pedal steel guitar just fine with an inexpensive Korg CA-30 or CA-40 tuner. They're less than $30. No bells and whistles, but you can tune your guitar with it.

Try this thread:

Click Here

Never ask what's "best" on this Forum!

I have a friend who is acquainted with Buddy. When he asked him why he'd changed his method of tuning, Emmons apparently replied that he was tired of being out-of-tune with the other instruments in the band (or words very much to that effect).

Massaging those third strings (or slightly flattening them to please our jaded ears) always struck me as odd, even when I first took up steel in the '70s, although I followed the herd for a long time. The very point that Barry so eloquently makes above seemed obvious to me - it may be a '3rd' at the zero fret, but it's a 5th note three frets up with the 'F' lever engaged. I don't tweak the B string on my six-string guitars, and I don't flatten the Es on C6th, either.

I'm just dismayed that it took me so many years to decide to tune as I do now. (I was going to say 'properly', but decided agains using such an inflammatory word at the last second.... )

The end result, though, is in the ear of the beholder (or 'behearer' .....)

I agree with Barry on one thing - the tuner you need does depend, in part, on how you tune. If it's just straight-up equal-tempered tuning, the only thing that matters is that each equal-tempered pitch estimate is accurate and the display can be read. If you want something that you can program non-ET offsets in, the Peterson tuners like the VS-II or Strobostomp are good - they are quite accurate and do the job well. To just manually tune to specific offsets, I like either the Boss TU-12H or the Korg DT-3.

But I disagree with this very hardnosed opinion:

It strikes me as a matter of simple logic rather than opinion.

By adopting different premises, one can make a reasonable argument for a wide variety of tuning approaches. It depends on what is important to you. If pure harmonic chords like simple triads are what's most important, one conclusion naturally follows. If you can live with progressively less harmonically pure chords like triads and want to optimize other things, other conclusions are reasonable.

Personally, most of the time I tune the roots of my steel tunings using the tuner in my Peavey Tubefex, doing the rest by ear, and my guitar straight up using the tuner in my Pod, and perhaps tweak it by ear a bit to sweeten up certain heavily-used chords a bit. Usually the biggest problems I have with pitch now are:

1. My playing technique is imperfect, sometimes significantly. No tuner will help this.
2. Even if I tune and execute well, there is tuning error - sometimes significant - between me and bandmates. No tuner will help this.

Therefore, for me, tuners are a complete non-issue. I suggest trying some, latch onto one that works for you, use it, and then focus on playing in tune.

My opinions, of course.

They all work good brother, take yur pick!

Well, Kevin, are you numb yet? Subjects to avoid on the forum: tempered/justified tuning, Robert Randolph, Jerry Garcia, cabinet drop along with gun control, abortion, and religion.

Dave -- here's some more simple logic for you. If you follow "just" intonation, or "pure" tuning, or "natural" tuning, or tune by harmonics or beats, or "sweeten" your tuning, then you are going to tune the G# strings flat of what the tuner says, right? Because they represent the major third in the open E chord, right? (Because the harmonic that is closest to what we call the major third is slightly lower than the equal tempered major third.) But then those strings will be flat in your G# minor chord (which is also a "simple triad," by the way) and it will be out of tune unless you lower the Bs and D#s as well. Fact, not opinion. And those same strings represent the fifth note in your C# chord (minor or major) so those chords will be out of tune also. Fact not opinion. Perhaps some of you folks don't understand this, but you certainly can't argue with it.

You can tune your steel any way you want, of course. You can put the thing in the oven and tune it at 350 degrees if you want. But don't tell a beginner he needs a $200 tuner when a $25 tuner will do -- that's really unacceptable, and is the reason why I am trying so forcefully to clear up the confusion here! Especially when that confusion is based on misunderstandings, misinformation, and a misguided reverence for pedal steel history! People used to use all sorts of methods to tune a steel back before electronic tuners were cheap and accurate. None of that is necessary anymore!

A modern pedal steel can get dozens of chords at every fret. If the only ones you want in tune are the ones without knees or pedals, fine, then use "just" intonation. But if you want all the chords you play to be equally in tune, then you have to use, by definition, equal tempered tuning, which is precisely what digital tuners are programmed to do. That is a fact, based on physics and the science of acoustics, not an opinion. And this thread has NOT been "hijacked," because the end result of these facts is that all you need to tune a pedal steel is a $25 tuner, and that is the correct information that a newbie should be told. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but factually incorrect "opinions" based on ignorance or misunderstanding that confuse or intimidate beginners, or that cause them to waste their hard-earned money, need to be corrected.

Barry - everything you say is correct on a fixed pitch instrument like a piano or a guitar (although the guitar has some facility to change pitch by bending or applying variable pressure on the frets). But a pedal steel is fundamentally not a fixed pitch instrument. No matter how you do it, tuning is a compromise. That is the only 'fact' here.

It doesn't matter a whit to me how anybody else tunes. I came on here after decades playing guitar, and before that piano - I tuned everything ET using a simple tuner. But after listening to the reasoned arguments of many fine players here, and also doing the math, I decided to listen to the difference. I ultimately concluded that forcing myself to tune by ear using something closer to JI sounds better for what I'm doing on pedal steel - to me.

But don't tell a beginner he needs a $200 tuner when a $25 tuner will do -- that's really unacceptable, and is the reason why I am trying so forcefully to clear up the confusion here ... Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but factually incorrect "opinions" based on ignorance or misunderstanding that confuse or intimidate beginners, or that cause them to waste their hard-earned money, need to be corrected.

You can't 'forcefully' insist on anything here. The majority of serious professional pedal steel players I've run into tune significantly away from equal temperment, and they're neither ignorant nor tone-deaf. You're using some pretty strong language that is not called for.

BTW - I already and completely agreed with you that one doesn't need a special tuner - when you tune so it 'sounds good', the ears trump. I don't claim to have everything figured out at all, but I guarantee you that I and many others noticed how much better my intonation got when I started using my ears instead of some mathematical formula. Don't get me wrong - I'm fine with mathematical formulae when they fit. I have been teaching science, engineering, math, and logic for a long time, and I honestly don't need a lecture on logical thinking.

ET is, more or less, a minimum RMS (root-mean-squared) error proposition - it's a form of optimization of pitch errors in all positions, assuming that the relative pitch intervals are fixed. But if one wants to favor certain pitch intervals, and these are mainly the ones used, a different optimization may work better. Then there's the fact steel guitars are inherently not fixed-pitch, which also changes the optimization criteria - microtonal shifts and slight bar slants can change this whole equation.

I really think that getting one's pitch discrimination ability together is perhaps the most important part of this instrument. But if someone wants to use a $200 tuner to pre-program offsets so they can tune to their ear standard silently on a stage, I think that is entirely reasonable.

Click on "Stop watching this topic!"

Click on "Stop watching this topic!"

Yeah, I oughta know better too - but we haven't had a tuning thread in a while. At least it's about playing steel guitar, and I'll be honest - carefully listening to the arguments in all directions really helped me, even if I had to dodge incoming fire to even ask a question. As long as it doesn't get 'too' shrill, I find it more interesting than yet another 'that [pick your brand] crap is just a bunch of noise' thread.

One more note here in defense of my $200 Strobo Stomp. I'm usually dealing with professional club situations when I tune. Unless you carry headphones, to me it is rather annoying and unprofessional to audibly tune. I use the E=440, which I believe is the old Newman settings which I used for decades with my Boss TU-12. Tune silently, make sure I'm getting sound and when I kick in, people are usually pleasantly surprised. BTW, the Peterson sweetened settings are also for pedal tuning.

A chromatic tuner. Did anybody mention that or I guess it's assumed. I use an old korg, don't know the model off hand but I have always tuned straight up 440 and never even thought about whether it was JI or ET. Never knew there was a difference until I joined this forum. I do tune my 6 string to the harmonic beats but I start with the tuner and the beats are just a double check and its right on the money with the tuner.

TU-12, ALL THE WAY,FAST,SIMPLE,GETS THE JOB DONE. YOU BETCHA, DYK?BC.

I'm guessing Kevin has already sold his steel guitar, quit the Forum, and changed his identity by now.

I have two guitars. A standard changer and a Hybrid changer Zum Steels. On the C neck I tune the root a bit sharp and the 3rd strait up. I then mostly harmonic the rest of the note unless the is no corresponding note to harmonic to. Then I tune it sympathetically to a third. I tune very close to the same way on the E neck. I can play to any modern recording or with any band that is in standard tune and sound DEAD ON. And all the chords I play sound in tune as well. I believe there isn't any one way to tune that is wrong but I can tell you not one person has told me my guitar sounded out of tune. AND it feels as if I can feel the tuning all the way up to my elbo! If a person has a Emmons PP or Hybrid there is another factor involved. I have to tune the raises first. Tough with this method if you're on stage or under time restraint. This is where I Progammed all of the raises into my tuner after I very carefully got the hybrid guitar in tune so I tune the raises first with the tuner. Then I can go back and tune all the open strings with a allyn wrench or nylon tuner wrench. Obviously I have a and expensive programmable tuner to make my life much easier tuning the hybrid. With a standard changer or non push pull guitar a reasonably accurate cheap tuner would work just fine for me.

lol Lee..

I used the one below for 20 years and it worked great but big. I bought a Seiko for 80 bucks and it works great, small with a 9v btry.

I don't tune straight up, I mostly use the later version of the Jeff Newman chart, E's at 442.5. I don't recall ever hearing Jeff play anything that sounded out of tune. Barry, maybe you can refer us to some example of Jeff's playing that sounds out of tune, that might reinforce your point of view. Years ago, I had an MSA tuner, this was one that you ran in line to the amp. When turned on, it would generate a tone that you then matched with the guitar. The guitar sounded fine using this tuner. When I finally got an chromatic tuner, and checked the tones, I found that they were almost exactly like Jeff's first tuning chart, E's at 440. I'd suggest that a beginner start with the Newman chart, using any tuner he wants to.