My rant concerning the near obsolescence of sheet music

[Earnest Bovine]

I would never play a piece of music by reading.

James, I agree with you, as long as you can remember every note that you have ever heard, and you can identify every note that you ever heard, and that you know which notes are mistakes in what you have heard and what the right note should be, and you have heard everything that you ever want to learn.

[Charles Davidson]

Around 1949,I was ten,got my first guitar[six string] I REALLY wanted to learn to play it,A country boy living WAY in the sticks,NO teachers around,You old geezers like me will remember seeing those ads in mags for the US SCHOOL OF MUSIC.I sent off for the guitar course,Think I had to send something like two dollars a month for a year for that thing,They were GREAT courses,Spent ever wakeing moment all summer on that that thing,In a few months had learned to sight read pretty well,Then started more learning to play by ear,When I was in my late teens started playing clubs,Landed a pretty good gig because I could read fairly good working a club that had three strip shows a night not [t and a ]shows but Vegas type show girls, different one each week,Everyone of them would show up for rehearsal on Monday,and EVERYONE of them brought their music,No ad libbing You HAD to play it like it was written,All that hard work and bleeding fingers when I was ten sure paid off a few years years later,Also played a lot of Lounge Lizard gigs that being able to read helped.Not trying to be ugly but one of the most stupid comments [heard it a thousand times] I CAN READ MUSIC,BUT NOT ENOUGH TO HURT MY PLAYING. Being able to read saved my butt,and made me a few bucks in my early days. DYK?BC.

[James Mayer]

Hi James,

I agree with you, standard notation is a bit cumbersome for pedal steel guitar. And I am wondering how you learned to play 6 string guitar if not through some kind of notation. Just curious .

Actually, I wasn't speaking in terms of pedal steel guitar. I think it's quite cumbersome if you are playing any non-keyboard instrument or any instrument that plays more than simple single-note lines. It's great for violin, for example. For guitar, not so much.

Since you asked....I decided to go to Spain to learn flamenco guitar. I had about 6 months, before leaving the states, to learn the basics of guitar so I could make the most of my stay in Sevilla. I comped a jazz class at the University of Arkansas. The teacher was nice enough to let me sit in with the class of 5 guitarists and learn all I could. I even performed horribly in a recital. I learned about 7 chords that I've rarely used since and two major scale patterns. No sheet music was involved, but I did learn how to read a basic chord chart. However, I used the recordings of the pieces ("Tune Up" and "The Flintstones") to learn the majority of the songs. I'm not great at hearing chords, by the way, so I did refer to the chord chart quite a few times.

In Spain, my teacher was a gypsy who had learned from rote and couldn't read a lick. He could play in large flamenco ensembles with complex polyrhythms. He did learn some memorized pieces, but like every other flamenco guitarist, he never played them the same way twice. If you ever want to hear bad flamenco, listen to classical guitarist who decided to record a flamenco album. There are quite a few. Angel Romero and John Williams come to mind. Notably, John Williams has complained that his training has stifled his ability to play with others outside of his strict idiom. He's amazing and I'm a fan, but he can't improvise or collaborate very well without the crutch.

On the other hand, the Muhammed Ali of the flamenco guitar, Paco De Lucia, has recorded a respectable interpretation of "Concierto De Aranjuez". In his bio-documentary, he describes listening to a recording and learning to read sheet music just enough to get him through the parts where his ear failed him. The recording was done live with an orchestra and no overdubs. He played the entire program from memory. He also recorded several other full albums in the same year. My point is that the traditional way is not necessarily the best way and definitively not the only way.

Most school children learn to play in the 4th or 5th grade. And I was trying to think how you would teach a grade schooler to play trumpet, for example. I use this because I play trumpet and it only has 3 keys, Without standard notation. To play the 1st note of a C scale on trumpet you use no keys second note (D) 1st & 3rd keys, 3rd note of the scale E 1st & 2nd keys. Without some visual affirmation of these 3 notes I can not imagine a child being able to learn this simple scale. I can not visualize any kind of tab for trumpet or any single note instrument that would not be cumbersome and confusing.

Some instruments have a lot of keys. So IMHO you are teaching the child to speak through the instrument musically ,by using standard notation.

Well, I'm not a teacher, which you might have figured out by now. Why not teach the kid the first note and have him listen and try to find the second note? If he/she can't, he/she can look at the notation. As long as he/she keeps following this method, his ear would be well developed and he could learn to have a conversation or give a speech without having to look at the teleprompter. I know the metaphors are getting tiresome, but we are talking about an auditory art form, after all. A student who is taught to never rely on visual cues would have a better foundation.

Most Classically trained musicians should understand scales and keys. Because the key signature will tell them what notes to play in the scale. .As far as the scale relationship to chords goes . Musicians that can only play single notes usually do not think in terms of chords. Because they can't play one without two other people supplying the other notes in the triad.

Well, my ex-roommate is a fairly proficient classical cellist. She can sing a scale. However, she somehow has little understanding of how the scale relates to chords. Maybe that's a cello thing, but she understands the key signature as simply a means to describe which notes to sharp or flat. You CAN be a proficient reader and not understand much more than simply how to read. Notably, we had to write out the notation for her when we needed her to play a simply harmony on one of our recordings. Seriously, this harmony occurred twice in the song, was very simple, and could not be conveyed to her without written notation.

I would be curious to know how you would learn an original composition that has never been recorded. If some one supplied you the tab for it you would still not know any rhythmic patterns or the duration of any of the notes.

I'm racking my brain, trying to think of a real-world scenario where I would be asked to play a previously unrecorded piece with nothing but sheet music. I've learned many unrecorded pieces. Whoever wants me to play it says, "it's in the key of Eb", or "the chords are". They might sing the melody. When one of my band mates writes a song, they record a rough cut with their cellphones, laptops, whatever and distribute via email. Tape decks would be used if we didn't have digital. Nothing is going to convey the feeling better than the music itself. Notation is a method that served a great purpose before the advent of recorded music.

As far as rhythmic notation.......classical musicians are notorious for having terrible rhythm. Their tempo may be fine, but rhythm is learned by listening and emulating. Angel Romero probably tried to read some terrible compound time signature instead of listening and learning the compas when he recorded his album "Flamenco!". While it may have been the fault of the transcriber for trying to write something that can't be written well in notation, it's Mr. Romero's fault for relying on the wrong medium to learn the music.

I also agree with you on improvisation. It seems a lot of people that read music are not very good at it. But in my experience the classically trained musicians that have this talent usually play Jazz. The ones that don't have this skill stick to classical music. Because they are not improv minded. People are all different and it comes easy to some not so easy to others.

I don't know if I buy that some people just aren't "improv minded". Some people may not WANT to do it. But anyone can do it if they want to. Some people form the bad habit of relying on notation. I would bet that a child who learns to associate movements with sounds instead of movements with symbols would be much better prepared to improvise. Translating what you hum or sing to your fingers is a very valuable skill and one that is not taught by reading.

I agree with Bryan standard notation coveys a wealth of info. Without this info. it would be hard for two different ensembles to play the same music consistently. You might recognize the piece by one group and when another played it not at all.

Well, I have to admit that I don't like playing anything the same way twice and can't understand why anyone would want to listen to an exact note-for-note performance more than once. So, I guess it's kinda like discussing religion. I think the music world is better off without exacting consistency. However, I can't see how an ensemble of decent musicians is going to screw up something so bad that you wouldn't recognize what it is supposed to be.
[/quote]

I am new to the PSG but have played music all my life. Standard notation has been around a long time. I am not sure how long PSG has been around.I would think if someone comes up with something better and easier in the future, there will be a major shift in music and whatever it is will be adopted.

It already has been adopted. How many of us on this forum are using some form of learning outside of musical notation? How much PSG music is arranged in standard notation? Tab, in my opinion, is less handicapping than music notation because you can't rely on it. Most of it doesn't take timing into account (and a frequently has a lot of errors) and forces you to listen to complete the learning process. How many pedal steelers in previous decades learned by copping licks from their heroes on the radio?

All this is just my view point. I am not mad, upset or offended. And my opinions are not meant to offend anyone. Just an interesting way to think of things & thought I would chime in.

Ditto. I expected this to be a debate, not a source of animosity.

[James Mayer]

I would never play a piece of music by reading.

James, I agree with you, as long as you can remember every note that you have ever heard, and you can identify every note that you ever heard, and that you know which notes are mistakes in what you have heard and what the right note should be, and you have heard everything that you ever want to learn.

Ok, so you are saying that get exposed to new music by going to a sheet music store and thumbing through the books?

The amount of music in the world that is written can't begin to compare to what is recorded.

As far as mistakes, plenty of them occur at the hands of transcribers.

[James Mayer]

Around 1949,I was ten,got my first guitar[six string] I REALLY wanted to learn to play it,A country boy living WAY in the sticks,NO teachers around,You old geezers like me will remember seeing those ads in mags for the US SCHOOL OF MUSIC.I sent off for the guitar course,Think I had to send something like two dollars a month for a year for that thing,They were GREAT courses,Spent ever wakeing moment all summer on that that thing,In a few months had learned to sight read pretty well,Then started more learning to play by ear,When I was in my late teens started playing clubs,Landed a pretty good gig because I could read fairly good working a club that had three strip shows a night not [t and a ]shows but Vegas type show girls, different one each week,Everyone of them would show up for rehearsal on Monday,and EVERYONE of them brought their music,No ad libbing You HAD to play it like it was written,All that hard work and bleeding fingers when I was ten sure paid off a few years years later,Also played a lot of Lounge Lizard gigs that being able to read helped.Not trying to be ugly but one of the most stupid comments [heard it a thousand times] I CAN READ MUSIC,BUT NOT ENOUGH TO HURT MY PLAYING. Being able to read saved my butt,and made me a few bucks in my early days. DYK?BC.

1949, eh? This is why I asked in which decade Buddy Emmons lost those gigs.

[Barry Hyman]

James I'm with you all the way! You may be happy to know that I make a good living teaching improvisation without notation or tab. Theory yes, technique, yes, but notation is nearly obsolete, and besides it interferes with creativity when relied upon excessively. Keep talking, man -- the world needs to hear this!

[Bill Hatcher]

It seems like it's great for teaching music theory, but I'm always amazed at how many classically trained musicians know very little about how scales relate to chords/keys. Are they musicians or player-pianos that need a scroll to perform?

.

...and I am always amazed at how many steel guitarist know virtually nothing about classical music.

Your rant on sheet music is strange. Go to the music department of any university or the library of any symphony or peek over into the orchestra pit at any broadway show and you will find that sheet music is doing just fine.

To demean a musician as you have done just because he plays from sheet music and does not improvise as such is not necessary. There are plenty of valid situations where just reading the printed page is all that is needed.

Also in regards to your "scales" statement, I know plenty of players who know the scales stuff....and that is mostly what they sound like....just playing some scales....pretty boring.

[Donny Hinson]

The amount of music in the world that is written can't begin to compare to what is recorded.

And where, pray tell, did you come up with that bit of information?

[Jerry Roller]

I read notation to get a new tune into my mind, then play it "by ear". It is a great help to be able to read notation to pick up a melody but I don't see much possibility in sight reading unless you are only playing single string passages. I am a slow reader of notation but if I know a melody I can put in on paper in notation form about as fast as I can work the pencil. This comes from years of teaching. This is very useful when a friend has written a new song and needs it put in notation for copywriting. There are too many places on a steel guitar to get a particular note for me to comprehend site reading and playing on the fly. I am amazed even by piano players who can do this and they only have one key that will produce that certain note.
Jerry

[Erv Niehaus]

I think the topic of this discussion is one of the reasons that cause people to think less about our instrument and those who play it.

There aren't too many other musical forums where people brag about their lack of ability to read musical notation.

Such an attitude will always cause our instrumnet to remain in a second class position in the world of music.

I can just imagine a pedal steel player setting in with a large ensemble, the conductor passing out sheet music and coming to the steel player, the steel player telling him, "gee, sorry but I can't read music".
What a shame, nobody would get to hear the beautiful music that could eminate from that instrument of 10 strings.

[David Mason]

notation is nearly obsolete....
David Mason's unnecessarily sarcastic comments show the old elitist attitude that only people who can read are real musicians.

- Barry
The original post makes a strong assertion that people who's recorded output depended on "read" music - Isaac Stern, Leonard Bernstein, Eliot Fisk, name 'em - are mere regurgitators, not real musicians.

Are they musicians or player-pianos that need a scroll to perform?

Gee, I thought that was kind of sarcastic... sure, Isaac Stern is a mere player-piano. I also think there's room in music for more than one type of person -
What's the recorded output of the anti-readers here? Does anyone sit home and enjoy it, proportionate to the pleasure that "read" music has brought a few billion people?

The purpose of reading music, for myself, and for the original poster, is to help learn the parts you can't get by ear, and he understands this -

I find them useful for shortcuts when my ear is failing. If I always used the shortcut, I would never have improved my ear.

It's great to have an ear, too. But finding an example of a roommate or acquaintance who read music and couldn't play by ear is just as useful as finding someone who plays by ear and lost jobs because they wouldn't read - so? I like to read music, too, and I'm glad it's there.

I'm currently learning Miles' and Cannonball's solos from "Straight No Chaser" and "Autumn Leaves", from the 1958 albums "Milestones" and "Somethin' Else" respectively. For me, at least, it's difficult (IMPOSSIBLE) to get the exact inflections and grace notes of a horn on a string instrument without having a solid, WRITTEN guideline - I can go back over each section, note-by-note, without relying on recording software - umm, how many people have learned to play music in the world, so far - without a computer? Was this a good thing? I am aware of all the unfortunate 70's "jazz" guitarists who learned Charlie Parker solos from transcriptions and played their way through them on bandstands with no inflection, no feeling, seemingly no attempt to derive the underlying form and move on - yes, it was a tragedy. But an avoidable one.

There are many people who say they never learn other people's soles exactly, because it would harm them somehow and they'd rather express themselves... fine! I'm sure your cats love your playing. My own personal fascination is in what tools and methods great melodicists, both writing and improvising, used to develop their melodies. By learning things exactly, I can peek inside their heads at what they're thinking when they write (and yes I consider improvisers to be "writing.") What's in their toolbox? How did they do that? Transcribing other's solos has been the bedrock of every great improviser's training - if you don't know that, yet, you're going to hit an insurmountable wall in developing your own skills someday, if you're serious about it. What do you do when you want to try some of Scriabin's or Ravel's ideas?

Now, whether you depend on written copies of other people's music or you just play it is a matter of what's in front of you right then. Surely modern recording tools can work in tandem with sheet music, but the "death of paper" - nah. Look at all the sheet music on computer screens already - it's not leaving. How do you work on music when you're sitting in the doctor's office?

in 35 years of playing pedal steel I have yet to have someone hand me a sheet of music and ask me to play it, either at a rehearsal or on stage. It's not expected of country rock musicians.

- b0b

There has been a huge decline in the role of steel guitar on the radio, rock and country, and it's certainly lamented enough here. If you listen to modern country songs - who is carrying the melodies? Who is executing the specific rhythmic figures that the composer and arranger wanted? The guitarists and keyboardists.... over the years, have the producers, arrangers, and writers simply learned it's more efficient to communicate with certain instrumentalists, because they've cultivated certain skills? Communication skills....

Anther common lament here is the "I've been dropped from the band cause of economics" thread. Ummm - if you can play the rhythmic figures and the melodies on your steel guitar better than the lead guitarist, why didn't they drop him? Oh - all you can play is pads and fills and solos, you don't know the songs.... Where would a steel guitarist, in a hurry to learn a bunch of songs, go to find a condensed group of melodies and chord charts?

You know, I have never personally heard a classical musician say that improvisation is wrong or a bad thing to know. A number of famous people have derided rock music (Segovia comes to mind) but then, Joe Pass called Hendrix's music "garbage" - so? Every younger classical musician I've met wanted to get better at improvising, and yes, dropping the sheet music was hard at first. However, the best guitar students I have by far are the ones with earlier classical piano experience. For one thing, they have DISCIPLINE - they work at getting better. That was instilled in them by reading music, not jamming away at their feelings.... It would be wasteful to go through the list of great jazz musicians with early classical lessons, because they hugely outnumber the ones who dropped from the womb blowing 64th notes with no training whatsoever. Take what's there, man.

(& yes, I read through something every day, usually parts of Bach's "Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin." Bach wrote them as combination theory and technique lessons for his students, but they turned out to be so beautiful they've been performed for centuries also. It's not my loss if anyone's bypassed them, but why advocate inflicting that personal lack on others?)

[Doug Beaumier]

I would never play a piece of music by reading.

James, imagine opening a book of jazz standards, Christmas songs, fiddle tunes, etc. and being able to play these songs on your steel guitar directly from the written music... even songs that you have Never Heard. That would EXPAND your steel playing. You would discover patterns and chords that you probably would never have thought of on your own, and maybe would not have picked up by ear. Notation also gives you the Exact Correct melody, not a close, improvised approximation. I have learned dozens of songs from the written music... before hearing any recording of the song. There is a lot of information on the written page, so you don't need to hear the song to play it. Of course, on pedal steel there are many ways to play the same melody, so you need to experiment with a song to find the smoothest way to play it, combining the chords and harmonies with the melody line.

It doesn't have to be either "all note reading" or "all by ear". A good player should do both, in my opinion. Just because a player is a good note reader does not mean he can't play by ear. Sometimes learning by ear from a recording is the easier way to go, sometimes it's easier to get the tune from sheet music. It just depends on the situation.

[b0b]

I wish I had sheet music for Sneaky Pete's part on "Hot Burrito #1".

[James Mayer]

...and I am always amazed at how many steel guitarist know virtually nothing about classical music.

I consider myself a guitarist that is learning steel guitar. I've felt this way for far longer than I've been playing steel.

I also had a brief classical guitar phase. Not for me, obviously. However, I feel I have a great appreciation for classical composers. I love classical music, actually. No, this is not contradictory. Most classical musicians are not composers, nor are they creative in the least. The vast majority of them have received training that stresses NOT being creative. Not playing it exactly as written is not being "disciplined". Furthermore, learning to read is not learning to compose just like reading a million books doesn't make you a novelist.

Your rant on sheet music is strange. Go to the music department of any university or the library of any symphony or peek over into the orchestra pit at any broadway show and you will find that sheet music is doing just fine.

It always amazes me that someone who practices a piece as much as a broadway musician doesn't have the piece memorized enough to ditch the paper. I KNOW that if I practiced any piece as much as they do I would want to concentrate solely on my instrument and could listen to determine when my part comes in. Who wants to stress about turning the page? What if the paper falls off the stand? This is the very definition of a crutch. They know what they are playing very well. By that point, memory should take them there, yet they can't give up the safety net.

Actually, I've thought about going back to school for music many times. Most programs offer classical and jazz only and do it in a very regimented and academic style. Huge turn off. Go to your local college music program and ask them how many of those musicians went on to be anything other than teachers. Nothing wrong with being a teacher, but we are talking about being musicians.

I'll attempt to clear up my definition of "musician". I equate it to "artist". Art without creativity ceases to be art. Sure, artists study the master and draw influence, but give me an equivalent crutch to sheet music in any other art form. Does an actor carry his or her lines on stage? Does a painter make photocopies of a paint-by-number template and create hundreds of exact "originals"?

To demean a musician as you have done just because he plays from sheet music and does not improvise as such is not necessary. There are plenty of valid situations where just reading the printed page is all that is needed.

I don't mean to demean the non-improvisers. I DO mean to demean the method that teaches willful creative stagnation.

Also in regards to your "scales" statement, I know plenty of players who know the scales stuff....and that is mostly what they sound like....just playing some scales....pretty boring.

If someone is playing scales when performing it isn't going to sound so great, however knowing and understand the scale degrees and how to use them in context is incredibly useful. I try to think in chord tones mostly and for that I practice extended arpeggios, something I gained from dabbling in Gypsy Jazz. Practicing scales on a single string is very useful in steel. Play long flowing lines that land on powerful notes sounds great. Playing fast scale based runs is usually pretty technical and boring, especially on steel.

[James Mayer]

The amount of music in the world that is written can't begin to compare to what is recorded.

And where, pray tell, did you come up with that bit of information?

Ok, look up all the bands on myspace. Most of that is original music (myspace tries to enforce copyright laws). Have you checked out internet radio and it's vast diversity?

There have been way way more recorded songwriters in the last 40 years than published works in all of the centuries before recorded music. We are in the age of communication and proliferation. Home studios are commonplace. It's only natural that art is growing exponentially.

[Doug Beaumier]

Written music is a helpful tool, just as EARS are a helpful tool. Sheet music is not something that holds players back or inhibits their playing. They do that on their own. We have all met players can only play what is written on a page. That's the fault of the player, not the fault of the written music.

[James Mayer]

I think the topic of this discussion is one of the reasons that cause people to think less about our instrument and those who play it.

I wasn't aware that people looked down on the steel guitar. If this is true, I doubt it's because of topics such as this one.

There aren't too many other musical forums where people brag about their lack of ability to read musical notation.

I'm not bragging about anything. I'm not a great musician and haven't said otherwise. I can read sheet music if I have to. I can't read Latin but I'm not bragging about it. I will say Latin isn't as useful as it once was. It's the same argument.

[James Mayer]

Written music is a helpful tool, just as EARS are a helpful tool. Sheet music is not something that holds players back or inhibits their playing. They do that on their own. We have all met players can only play what is written on a page. That's the fault of the player, not the fault of the written music.

I agree on the first point. However, it's the teachers fault, not the students. They are doing what they are told and putting trust in their instructor who is really not teaching them to play the instrument. Reading is not playing. Reading is reading. A teacher should teach a the student to fish, so to speak.

At some point, my argument has been turned from "sheet music is too often RELIED upon" to "sheet music is useless". I'm not sure that people are reading what I'm actually writing here. I've already said it's useful and that I use it. However, my point is that it's gone past being a tool and, far too often, has become a safety net or, even worse, the music itself. I do think it's far better to learn to read AFTER you learn to play and express yourself. Eradication of music on paper is not my hope. Eradication of creative stagnation should be every musician's hope.

[John Phinney]

No use in this.

[Erv Niehaus]

James,
There are some people who don't consider the steel guitar to be a legitimate instrument. They consider it to be a kind of "novelty" instrument.
And the topic of this posting doesn't diminish their attiitude.

[James Mayer]

James,
There are some people who don't consider the steel guitar to be a legitimate instrument. They consider it to be a kind of "novelty" instrument.
And the topic of this posting doesn't diminish their attiitude.

Well, those people are stuffy elitist snobs and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Example: Segovia "elevated" the guitar to a "respectable" position by playing "respectable" music. Then, he turns around and insults flamenco guitarists as brash and primitive. I believe he used the term, "instinctual".

That battle can never be won and you shouldn't want it to be. Traditional classical instruments are way way way overpriced because the market is one of affluent snobbery.

[Fred Rushing]

Boy my brain is sore trying to read all of this. If someone said this before here it is again. When you know how to READ you look at the chart which is more than a simple note it is all about TIMING. You NEVER have to hear the arrangment. You SEE it and a READER can DAMN well PLAY IT the way the chart ask you to. You don't have to LISTEN to someone else play it for you first. If we could all READ the pedalsteel would be in places it has never been before. If you think READING is not important to MOST professionals ask JD, Buddy or Lloyd and I bet the answer will surprise you. I done now Thanks Fred

[James Mayer]

Boy my brain is sore trying to read all of this. If someone said this before here it is again. When you know how to READ you look at the chart which is more than a simple note it is all about TIMING. You NEVER have to hear the arrangment. You SEE it and a READER can DAMN well PLAY IT the way the chart ask you to. You don't have to LISTEN to someone else play it for you first. If we could all READ the pedalsteel would be in places it has never been before. If you think READING is not important to MOST professionals ask JD, Buddy or Lloyd and I bet the answer will surprise you. I done now Thanks Fred

Damnit! I never said anyone should not learn to read. I've attacked the teaching method and the crutch. I've said it's a useful tool but a far from optimum one.

[Erv Niehaus]

Thank you Fred!
You just reinforced the point I was trying to make.

We need to lend some legitimacy to our instrument.

James,
If you think traditional classical instruments are overpriced because of affluent snobbery, what is your explanation for the price paid for old, vintage Gibson mandolins? Or do you consider that to be a "classical" instrument?

[James Mayer]

Thank you Fred!


James,
If you think traditional classical instruments are overpriced because of affluent snobbery, what is your explanation for the price paid for old, vintage Gibson mandolins? Or do you consider that to be a "classical" instrument?

I think you pointed to a rare exception to the rule to prove a point.