Right Hand Alpha Say What? Students: Beware of Teachers!

[Tom Quinn]

Jeff Newman taught some of us a heck of a lot more than pedal steel. If you cannot understand why he wants you to keep your posture correct and your right arm tucked in, then don't do it. But for some of us who knew the guy and profited greatly from his kindness and insight, looking at your post is a bit offensive...

[Calvin Walley]

Tom

I agree this post was very offencive to one of the best teachers we ever had

[Tom Quinn]

And to compare Joe Wright to Jeff Newman as a player ... well sorry, but they are not even in the same ballpark. Maybe not even in the same city.

Jeff's playing was crystal clear and deep as the ocean. He never showed off to his students or tried to make anyone feel bad, but if you get the Jim and Jesse album "Our Kind Of Country," you will hear one-take slam dunks of some of the hottest shuffles recorded on steel.

[James Morehead]

There are only a few set rules to playing a steel, why confuse them with impossible feats of nature.

I don't understand why a simple excersise and a particular common posture, has digressed to "an impossible feat of nature".

So if you can't/don't want to learn the drill/excersise, don't poo-poo us who CAN get it, and benefit from it??
Geeeeeze Louise.

If you don't agree, no biggee do it the way it works for you. We've said that all the long.

[Chris LeDrew]

Jeff Newman gave the pedal steel guitar class.

[Tom Quinn]

What Chris just said...

[Herb Steiner]

I am an experienced teacher, and have taught steel guitar for several decades. I write and publish steel guitar instructional material and teach privately.

Let me explain two specific reasons why the right elbow should be close to the torso when playing the steel guitar.

First is simply GRAVITATIONAL FORCE and UNNECESSARY EXPENDITURE OF ENERGY. When your elbow is extended out from your torso, you are expending energy to hold it there. That energy drain is keeping the player from concentrating on correct playing, and is forcing muscle movement to keep the elbow extended to the right. Both arms, when playing, should be "loosey goosey," and not in a tension mode. Extending the elbows keeps the arms and shoulders in tension. The natural pull of gravity keeps the elbows close in to the body. Take advantage of that gravitational pull and not fight it.

Secondly, extending the elbow places the WRIST in an INCORRECT POSITION. The side of the palm, in line with the little finger, should be parallel to the edge of the pickup and perpendicular to the strings.
Palm blocking becomes much less problematic with this wrist position, as well as the ability to alternate picking between the thumb and either the forefinger or middle finger. With the elbow extended to the right, the angle of the palm to strings is changed and is incorrect.

I've corrected the arm/hand position of many students, some of which are Forumites to this day. Invariably their technique immediately improved when the right way to physically address the guitar was adopted, and the body was properly placed in due and ancient form to receive further instruction...

I didn't learn from Jeff; I learned from watching Buddy Emmons, Buddy Charlton, and Jimmy Day back in the 1960s. My technique was fully formed by 1968.

Of course, there can be exceptions and your mileage may vary. If you know more than the players I've mentioned, have at it and good luck in your journey, wherever it may take you. But please, don't contribute to other new players' future difficulties by challenging the wisdom of the cumulative experiences of the greatest players of the instrument, totalling hundreds of years of playing professionally.

[Charles Davidson]

It's kind of hard sometimes to figure out whats RIGHT or wrong,Just look at the great Bobby Koefer,how he held his bar,was it the correct way ? Must have been for him,He's in the Western Swing Hall of Fame, Look at some of the other great players and how they wear their picks,some have their picks extended WAY past their finger tips,some real close to the tips of their fingers,some have their pinky extended,some have it curled under,Which is the CORRECT way,Are some of them doing it WRONG ? DYK?BC.

[James Morehead]

Thank you Herb for such a wonderful explanation. I along with many others appreciate your words of wisdom.

[Marc Jenkins]

I have just started practicing recently with the magazine tucked in just right. I've actually noticed that it caused my whole right arm to relax, and it was easier to relax the shoulder as well. This is resulting in better dexterity and less soreness later. I was actually noticing that now my left side seems tense, so I put another magazine there. Also helping.

I also agree with Herb. Yup.

[Bobby Burns]

I have been a music teacher for over 20 years. The biggest challenge in teaching is always the guy who has a lot of talent, but no discipline. I insist that students try to do things exactly like I show them. After they have given it an honest try, if it doesn't work for them, we try to isolate the particular problem it is causing them, and come up with something that works. I never accept, I can't do that, I'm just not built that way, I'm trying to develop my own style, or any other excuse when it's obvious the student is just lazy and hasn't given it an honest chance.
Nobody was born a steel guitar player. We all have to work at it. Why give yourself such a disadvantage by emulating players with bad technique?
There have always been exceptions on all instruments, where someone who is truly gifted, becomes a great player and becomes famous for his musical abilities in spite of having horrible technique. Itzak Perlman holds his bow wrong. Tony Rice does some pretty funky things with his flatpick. The list would be very long,but, why would you copy their bad habits, when life will be soo much easier if you learn something that works a little better. Not all of us have the talent advantages that allow us to be an Itzak P, or a Tony R. We need all the help we can get.

I also think that is is unfair and irresponsible for a player/teacher, who is naturally gifted and has bad technique, to dismiss good technique as unnecessary, and pass this attitude to his students. It is the teachers responsibility to try and help all students learn to the best of their individual abilities. Every potential student may not be as talented as you or have your natural dexterity. It is your job to help them.

I'll admit that every good player develops his own techniques, but they do so as a result of hard work. Not too many folks can come up with something good by just sitting down, and making noise. We start out with a sound in our head, and some basic direction as to how to get that sound. If a student comes up with a technique that works for them, I'll by all means encourage them to move forward with it, maybe I'll learn something to help someone else in the process.

Do not belittle those who strive to develop good technique, by trying to say that because you didn't, it is unnecessary.

The one with so much talent,that he/she can learn to play well in spite of bad technique, did not need you as a teacher anyway.

[Bobby Burns]

I apologize if my previous post was a little like a rant. Mr Hyman, you got my dander up, but I assume that was your intention in the first place. I'll not hold it against you in future discussions on other topics.

[Lee Baucum]

Don't forget the convenience of already having a magazine under your arm when it's time to retire to the men's room.

[James Morehead]

Great post Bobby Burns. Great post.

[Ben Jones]

Theres folks who teach this instrument?
I wish one of em lived in my state.

[Brad Malone]

First is simply GRAVITATIONAL FORCE and UNNECESSARY EXPENDITURE OF ENERGY. When your elbow is extended out from your torso, you are expending energy to hold it there. That energy drain is keeping the player from concentrating on correct playing, and is forcing muscle movement to keep the elbow extended to the right. Both arms, when playing, should be "loosey goosey," and not in a tension mode. Extending the elbows keeps the arms and shoulders in tension. The natural pull of gravity keeps the elbows close in to the body. Take advantage of that gravitational pull and not fight it.

Secondly, extending the elbow places the WRIST in an INCORRECT POSITION. The side of the palm, in line with the little finger, should be parallel to the edge of the pickup and perpendicular to the strings.
Palm blocking becomes much less problematic with this wrist position, as well as the ability to alternate picking between the thumb and either the forefinger or middle finger. With the elbow extended to the right, the angle of the palm to strings is changed and is incorrect.<<

No one can explain things like Herb and I 100% agree with his statement. Elbows close to the body and little finger parallel to the edge of the pickup and perpendicular to the strings...that's the correct way but folks can do what they want..it's a free country

[Chris LeDrew]

The palm-blocking technique gets ingrained in you after a while. Elbow in, thumb out, knuckle up. Does this look right, Herb?

[Herb Steiner]

Marc Jenkins brought up the position of the left hand. Likewise, the left elbow should be up against the body, again in a relaxed position, not a forced one. The shoulder, and upper lower arms should NOT be under tension.

I have a good friend, a well-known and respected steel player, that I predicted would have shoulder problems eventually because of a very stiff and tense left arm that was visible onstage. A few years later he ultimately needed rather extensive left rotator cuff surgery. I don't know if his left arm technique was the cause of his problem, but it sure didn't help any.

The left arm needs a far greater range of movement than the right, because we have to move the bar up and down the length of the fretboard. But this is no problem. The elbow is essentially the pivot point and the arm can easily maneuver from left (lower frets) to right (approaching Hughey-land) without shifting the elbow too much at all.

Besides, who ever extends his left elbow to the left? That's just a silly picture to comprehend.

Back to the right hand for a moment. One reason guys want to extend the right elbow is because they feel it places the back of the hand parallel to the top of the strings, what we call "flat hand" position. Again, I've seen a great player or two have this hand shape, but conventional wisdom suggests the the angle of the back of the hand should be somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees to the plane of the strings.

IOW, if a "judo chop" to the pickup is an angle of 90 degrees to the strings, letting the hand naturally fall to the left, keeping the back of the palm against the strings, while curling the index and middle fingers into playing position should result in about a 45 degree angle. The first knuckle joint of the thumb should be parallel with the strings.

[Herb Steiner]

Chris, your body position looks perfect to me, except you're not wearing a hat!

That's okay, most of the time I don't wear one either.

[Chris LeDrew]

Thanks, Herb! I usually do wear a hat in this band, but I skipped it that night because I had a rock gig later. Hat head's a drag.

[Stephen Calhoun]

It could be worthwhile to--in this thread, or in a new one--report about one's own learning experience, where it became obvious that a particular technique had become an obstacle to progress.

This would be to ask, "what have you had to unlearn?"

Any takers?

[John De Maille]

I think somebody or a few, should re-read my post. I didn't "pooh-pooh" anyboy's method of playing. My post was a fact of personal attainment not degradation. In fact, I stated use what works for you and progress. That's it! If you can't "get" the prescibed way, find another. There's more than one way to skin a cat and play proficiently.

[James Morehead]

I think somebody or a few, should re-read my post. I didn't "pooh-pooh" anyboy's method of playing. My post was a fact of personal attainment not degradation. In fact, I stated use what works for you and progress. That's it! If you can't "get" the prescibed way, find another. There's more than one way to skin a cat and play proficiently.

I re-read it several times before I posted. I tried to see something other than what I seen, but it is what it is. My apology if you feel I misread your post.

[Dave Mudgett]

Beware of Teachers!

Even though I agree that not every "standard" approach to playing any instrument applies to every player, I would be careful before advising "Beware of Teachers!"

How does one learn? There are a lot of ways, but I think these two general approaches to searching out knowledge are two important ideas:

Breadth-First Search: One can start with zero prior knowledge and just start trying things, and hope that one tries a broad enough spectrum of approaches for long enough that one finds truly good ways to do them. If you really don't know anything or have anybody to show you, it's a reasonable approach - in fact, it may be the only approach. The problems are that it is, 1) relatively slow, and 2) it's easy to get stuck in a non-productive path if you're not disciplined to try many different approaches. Practically any approach, after it's practiced for a while, will feel more natural than what may be a much more productive approach the first time you try it. Of course, this is no longer "breadth-first search", but I guess my point is that it's easy to get into a very non-productive rut without knowing what the reasonable approaches are a-priori.

Depth-First Search: If one has some prior knowledge (usually supplied by a mentor of some kind), one doesn't have to traipse down every blind alley. Instead, one can quickly focus on things that are tried and true. Of course, one should not be absolutely swayed by an "orthodoxy of technique", but I still think it's worth trying some of the things that the true master players have found useful. I think that if one has a proper combination of humility and confidence in oneself, it's possible to take that prior knowledge which helps and shuck that which, after a reasonable trial, is not found to be useful.

But I think it would be very bad advice to someone who is truly interested in advancing in any field to simply ignore the masters who came before them. I'm not at all sure that's what you were saying, but I fear it might be easily interpreted that way by some. Sometimes the headline captures much more attention than the fine print.

[Jeff Valentine]

Reading all of these responses has really been interesting. Everyone has good points that obviously worked for them. Sometimes things aren't black and white. There has to be some room for gray here.
I'm by no means an expert here, but I did want to add a few things. Everyone is talking about technique, and how the hands do this and that. Nobody has really talked about the brain, and how that's really what drives everything. The tone is in the brain, which dictates everything the hands do. The brain houses our concept, which is what we want to sound like. If technique is built based on pursuing a concept then you can't go wrong. In other words, when we're totally focused on the music, or what we want to sound like, the body will learn to give us what we want. When we're focused on a physical aspect of our playing, we can't be focused on the music. The goal of playing music is to have it become what is known as an automatic function. In other words, we don't think about what we're playing. Things should get to the point where they just happen. Trying to have too much deliberate control over an automatic function has really bad results. Try walking down the street thinking about every aspect of each step you take. By the time you get to the end of the block your back will be sore. The point is, it's possible to get in the way of your own development by focusing too much on all the little motor functions that work together to give us what we want.
Most of it depends on the student. If they're the kind of obsessive person who pays attention to every little detail and is overcritical of themselves, they're better off not focusing on specific physical aspects of their own playing. If they're the kind of person who doesn't over think things and beat themselves up for their mistakes, maybe those specific instructions would be helpful. Certain neurological disorders like focal dystonia are caused by trying to make a change in an automatic function. The results are pretty traumatic. This forum is a gold mine when it comes to great people who take time to help others out. I've personally had some great advice on here that really helped me out. I think it all comes down to taking bits and pieces of what everyone says and coming up with what best works for you. I guess my point is pretty simple. As long as the music is the primary focus, you can't go wrong. Music is a journey without an end. Learn to play like a child learns to talk. No expectations or time limits, just time and patience.

-Jeff