The Steel Guitar Forum

Donny Hinson wrote:Sounds like they're country-rock oriented and you're more of a classic country player.

You and the band members have to adapt. I've been there. I work with guitar and keys players. we play mostly rock country. But we also play "Sleep Walk" "Last Date", the three lead players player there parts. I'm one of the lead players ,Steel Guitar You have to let the lead guitar player know that the steel guitar is also a lead guitar. Our band has been playing 8 years,same lead guitar player,keys, and steel guitar. Joe

www.willowcreekband.com

as a rock guitarists I can tell you this. its true, we have NO clue how to work with a steel player. we solo all the time never once thinking the steeler might wanna take one. we play faux pedal steel licks with no consideration at all about how it detracts from the real deal and clashes with it, we have no concept of proper volume, our concept on that is... if we are not the loudest thing in the band then we need to turn up some more...we give no consideration to staying out of any of our bandmates tonal range, if you are playing in the upper register then so are we, if we're playing with a B3 player, we will grab our POG's and try and out organ them. If we do allow you to solo, we'll be sure to throw in some extravagant backup to clash harshly with your licks instead of just laying low and playing the chords, we might even step right in front of your steel while you are soloing and put our foot up on the monitor as if we were playing the MAdison Square Garden..we are idiots.

now having said all that, and its partly in jest but much of that was true for myself, I can now say I am a much better musician and now after playing some steel...now I finally get it. Its actually made playing guitar far more interesting and fun for me. who'da thought laying out could be cool? well ...it IS!

So now when I encounter this behavior from a guitarist Im working with, I just explain that I need some space in the music and some consideration space and VOLUME wise and Ive been surprised that they have responded pretty well for the most part.
Honestly I dont think they are trying to be uncool about it or lousy musicians...they just dont know any better because they are used to taking all the solos and playing every part and playing all the time at high volume. least that was true for me till fairly recently.

so ...talk to em, if they dont get it, they most likely never will, or need some time to figure it out and they can do that on their own time not yours.

I have played in these nightmare bands over the years.I really lucked up over a year ago and got in a GREAT band [Strokin' Dixie] The guitar player and myself know when to play,and when NOT to play over each other,The steel is just as IMPORTANT in our band as the guitar,We play classic country,rock,blues, and a lot of Southern rock.Over the years I played in all country bands,blues bands, top 40 rock and roll, and all Southern rock bands,Glad I did,the steel works in all of this,and I can play the different styles,I can play the classic country clean as it needs to be played,and get down and dirty on the other stuff. The steel can FIT in almost every style of music,just do'nt be afraid to try ANYTHING. The steel is NOT just a country instrument. DYK?BC.

Come on....It doesn't matter if your play rock guitar, sax, hammered dulcimer, or whatever, you just don't hog the solos, and don't play lead lines on top of someone else. That's band 101.

Here's an weird idea: You can't diagnose and cure the problem here. Express your concerns to the band. Stay with it and see if it gets better. If it don't, when you've had all you can stand, tell them to stick it.

Double post. Sorry. I apologize. Will you please forgive me? I didn't mean to do it. It won't happen again. I just wasn't paying enough attention. I regret it.

IMHO, When you run into this type of Guitarist they will never change. Iv'e had talks with them, cussed them out to their face and they will always revert to having to play everything plus overriding what you are trying to play.It's almost a compulsion with them they cannot help. In my experience when I played with a good lead player my playing improved, with a bad lead you start just going through the motions. MOVE ON !

The best try to get in a band with PRO players,One knucklehead in a band can turn it into what my old DI used to call a [cluster- &^%$] DYK?BC.

Rick Campbell wrote:Come on....It doesn't matter if your play rock guitar, sax, hammered dulcimer, or whatever, you just don't hog the solos, and don't play lead lines on top of someone else. That's band 101.

dude... rock and roll is about massive guitar solos, all day and night, all the time, all louder than you or anyone else...preferably played with flaming chaps on and midgets serving me green m&ms off a silver platter. playing our leads over everyone else's is rock and roll 101. It is required by the gods of rock that we...ROCK! and the very definition of rocking is my blazing guitar solo...crank up the wind machine and get out of my way!! The drummer bassist and any other pesky instrument that happens to be on the stage with me...thats my backup. The singer? His job is to frame my guitar solos with stupid lyrics about elfs and dragons and say "Ladies and gentlemen....Ben Jones on electric guitar!!!" *makes crowd going crazy noise, then "wheeedly wheedly wee " twenty minute finger tapping solo on guitar.

Ben,

I stand corrected. It was wrong of me to speak about something I know very little about. Just keep banging on and have fun.

Thats okay Rick, I, the gods of rock, amd my triple marshall fullstacks forgive you.

from valhalla with love, yours in troo metal.
-Ben

I'm reminded of when I was asked to sit in with a country band a few years ago. They said they loved my playing. Uh-huh. The guitarist hogged every auditory space available: solos, fills, intros, turnarounds, endings, you name it. Then (and here is the piece de resistance) when it came to playing, of all things, SLEEPWALK, he took the WHOLE THING and didn't even give me a tiny piece of it! Not a verse, not a bridge, nuthin'! SLEEPWALK! What the #$*&* is that: a freakin' GUITAR TUNE or somethin'??!

That's the last time I ever played with those guys. I was, like, OUTTA THERE!

Been there, done that....mostly sit ins as per Doug and Jim. Once, going over the song list before the show, I was discussing kick-offs and turnarounds when the guitar player piped up with a fake smile that since I hadn't played with them as a group before, he couldn't think of asking me to do any intros or t/a's.

Fiddle player, keyboard, guitar player, bass all with maxed out volume in their amps, but it was the same in the monitors. The noise was nearly unbearable. And this was supposed to be a country band.

I concluded they just wanted a steel for stage candy for the visual effect. I did the best I could, got paid and never looked back.
One of those things that you suffer through and contribute to ignorance and unprofessionalism on their part. Also, one that you wouldn't do twice.

Start your own band and call the shots yourself and assume the headaches that go with it. I tried it and I like it.

Jim,you are too kind,Told this story before,but here it is again,When I switched from guitar to steel YEARS ago, Was getting to the point I could pretty well hold my own,I woodshedded a lot worked up a nice arrangment of Faded Love,there were three prima donna singers,I think they kept count of who got to sing the most,Anyway one night I asked if I could play one,Said I would like to do Faded Love,one of time piped up and said,Hey I know that tune I will sing it,I'm a real laidback guy,but that did it,I stood up got in his face and told him,HELL NO,YOU ARE NOT SINGING IT,DAMN IT I'M PLAYING IT. AND I DID. Stayed with that band awhile,NEVER had that problem again,in fact got to play two or three tunes a night after that. DYK?BC.

Amen !! I agree with Don. Buy some P.A. A truck & trailer to haul it. Book all the gigs. Hire people who have the same musical ideas as you . Provide a place to practice . Put together a show & hit the circuit. You get all the atta boys but guess where the finger is pointed when an aw $#!+ happens !! In the end you have to do what is best for you !!

SLEEPWALK, he took the WHOLE THING and didn't even give me a tiny piece of it! Not a verse, not a bridge, nuthin'! SLEEPWALK! What the #$*&* is that: a freakin' GUITAR TUNE or somethin'??!

That's the last time I ever played with those guys. I was, like, OUTTA THERE!

Okay Jim, now tell us how you REALLY feel...

I know exactly what you're talking about. Once I spent a whole gig padding chords while some idiot rock guitarist played solo after solo after solo... and at the end of the night he told me how happy he was to have a pedal steel in the band. Never again.

Start your own band and call the shots yourself and assume the headaches that go with it. I tried it and I like it.

Been there, done that, and I'm about to do it again. Yes, it's a PITA to have to deal with all that stuff, but at least it gets done the way I want it, and I can't whine if it doesn't work out.

Bill - you have a very calm and rational view of this, and I think your attitude is spot-on. If you think they're good musicians and a little time and rehearsal will open them up to some different ideas, it makes sense to try. I always try to be patient with people, but when I point out the obvious and they summarily dismiss it without consideration, I think it's a waste of time after that.

Hey, I've played a chord-melody version of Sleepwalk on guitar with bands for a long time, but I guarantee you that if I was working with a steel player, he or she would at least get equal time. Unfortunately, with very few steel players around here, that steel player is usually me. Honestly, I would really enjoy working in a band with two people who could trade off steel and guitar duties.

I guess the part I don't understand about this egomania thing is that spreading the wealth to multiple instruments only adds interest to any song.

as a rock guitarists I can tell you this. its true, we have NO clue how to work with a steel player. we solo all the time never once thinking the steeler might wanna take one. we play faux pedal steel licks with no consideration at all about how it detracts from the real deal and clashes with it, we have no concept of proper volume, our concept on that is... if we are not the loudest thing in the band then we need to turn up some more...we give no consideration to staying out of any of our bandmates tonal range, if you are playing in the upper register then so are we, if we're playing with a B3 player, we will grab our POG's and try and out organ them. If we do allow you to solo, we'll be sure to throw in some extravagant backup to clash harshly with your licks instead of just laying low and playing the chords, we might even step right in front of your steel while you are soloing and put our foot up on the monitor as if we were playing the MAdison Square Garden..we are idiots. Laughing

Um, as a guy who has definitely played a lot of rock and roll guitar, I certainly know some of those guys. They're no fun to play with in any kind of band, playing any instrument. But I think that if you just record a show, and then play it back when they're sober, then if they're good players, they'll say, "Man, who was that lousy band?"

dude... rock and roll is about massive guitar solos, all day and night, all the time, all louder than you or anyone else...preferably played with flaming chaps on and midgets serving me green m&ms off a silver platter. playing our leads over everyone else's is rock and roll 101. It is required by the gods of rock that we...ROCK! and the very definition of rocking is my blazing guitar solo...crank up the wind machine and get out of my way!! The drummer bassist and any other pesky instrument that happens to be on the stage with me...thats my backup. The singer? His job is to frame my guitar solos with stupid lyrics about elfs and dragons and say "Ladies and gentlemen....Ben Jones on electric guitar!!!" *makes crowd going crazy noise, then "wheeedly wheedly wee " twenty minute finger tapping solo on guitar. Cool Cool Cool

dude, been there, done that too, but truly - the great players, even in rock and roll, do not stomp on everything. They may wail during pauses, fills, and absolutely take no prisoners on solos - but they do things that stay out of the sonic space of the singer while they're singing, and riff or add cool rhythmic figures while other instruments take solos - it is possible to support very aggressively without stomping over everything.

To me, the only place this kind of thing works is in a power trio, preferably with the lead guitarist doing most if not all of the singing - it's amazing how that nonsense subsides when it's yourself that's getting stomped on. But in a band with good singers and/or other flamboyant players, I think this is a recipe for either getting fired or breaking up the band, I don't care what kind of music it is. OK, maybe you can get away with that in a punk band. That's all about energy, musical values have very little to do with it.

M&M's? Midgets? I always preferred young college coeds serving a shot of tequila while I'm taking a solo, connected to the stage by a 100' cord or a wireless unit. That is rock and roll.

My opinions, what else is new.

Dave Mudgett wrote:I think that if you just record a show, and then play it back when they're sober, then if they're good players, they'll say, "Man, who was that lousy band?"

I dunno; that didn't seem to work for the Dead...

Oops! I said it! Flame Suit "ON"!!!

Ha, you're in for it now, Jim!

OK, I know everybody's not a deadhead. Their playing was sometimes very busy - but what I'm talking about goes well beyond that. I didn't generally notice them doing the stuff I referenced from Ben's comments:

- Guitarists playing faux steel licks with a steel in the band? Nope, Jerry played steel - OK, maybe not everybody loves his steel playing - but he did play it. Bob Weir doing faux steel licks? Nope, I never noticed that either.

- Guitarists trying to out-B3 the B3? Nope, never noticed that.

- Intentionally and egomaniacally put overpoweringly loud and clashing backup over other things? There was often a lot going on, but that's not my take.

- Mugging for audience attention? Um - hardly. If anything, they just tended to stand there and play. Not a lot of jumping around, almost an anti-stage-show stage-show.

I vote Not Guilty. If anyone thinks they're a lousy band, I'm guessing it's something else.

Jim Cohen wrote:

Dave Mudgett wrote:I think that if you just record a show, and then play it back when they're sober, then if they're good players, they'll say, "Man, who was that lousy band?"

I dunno; that didn't seem to work for the Dead...

Oops! I said it! Flame Suit "ON"!!!

Come on, Jim... you're a Deadhead from way back!

OK, I know everybody's not a deadhead.....

Hey now - what you're dealing with here is a guy who was once deemed "too high to jam with the Dead" by Jerry Garcia hisself back one summer night in 1968 when,as a self-absorbed 21 year old lead guitarist in the opening band,I was invited to join them onstage. After an acid-inspired atonal improvisation,Jerry asked me to unplug and sit down.
I was seriously bummed. That - and seeing Hendrix on a good night made me realize there was no point in going on with that exercise and made me eventually hang up the 6-string,the acid and the beautiful hippie chicks and start drinking liquor and playing steel in hillbilly bars full of bar flies and snuff queens.

But when I find myself in the above mentioned scenario, I just turn up - way up,flick on my Bosstone and befuddle the guitar player with unresolving chromatic Buddy Cage licks.

Bill your post was a summary of all the bands I have been in. I actually got mad when I read it as it hit home so well.

the favourites I've heard AFTER I join include :
"We want to sound country like Neal Young"
"I love Blue Grass like the Grateful Dead"

Had one guy that walked in front of me during any breaks I got and played "pedal steel " licks over my stuff. Obvious ego issues there.

I play with a guy now that always tries to "back-up" my solos by bending chords to ensure I have no reference notes to go of off. I have had to fight for every break in a song I get. What it has caused me to do is come up with parts good enough to convince the band leader to step in on my behalf. I email everyone I play with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VXwGDC6ZaE

to show them how powerful steel is when its not being walked on (and when the players actually talented but I dont mention that part). If they dont like that song I know I am in the wrong band, and then I start asking for a lot of money. If I get it then its worth it, if not off to better things. There is always is the singer songwriter, drum, and base trio's to join up here so I get some space these days.

Bill, this is off topic but check your PM for an event near you this weekend

I ran into this once. The first thing I did was sing Folsom Prison Blues in Eb then I played overly loud on half of every ride the guitar took. Then I quit the group. I do this for fun and am just a wannabe so the money doesn't matter.

Dave M., you have to know i was joking right?

about the m&m's that is....