The Steel Guitar Forum

Alan
Thanks! Now I know which model to keep an eye out for. Is the stock speaker an EV?

Well, I don't play guitar (on gigs), but I play slide guitar licks on pedal steel in a blues band. For that I want guitar-like tone, with pick-sensitive grit. But on slow blues I like a clean tone with extra reverb, and likewise on some R&B balads. And we do a little fusion and avant garde jazz, and I also want clean tone for that. My solution is a silver-face Dual Showman Reverb with a 2x12 cab (one Weber neo and one Fender), with a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube. So I can have good clean tube tone, or good pick-sensitive tube distortion. So, I'm with Ben Jones. I wasn't sure the SDTT would work as well for guitar and steel as it does for me for clean steel and dirty steel. But according to Ben, maybe it does.

Another solution would be to use a big tube amp that has sufficient clean headroom for steel, but that has some bloom and distortion at the top. Then use an attenuator to step it down to lower output to get the guitar into the good stuff at the top at usable volume. They are making a lot of guitar amps now with built in attenuators.

I should probably be more specific about what i do because I know its a bit different than what alot of you guys do and the sound you guys want. I play in rock bands and my guitar tone is high gain as opposed to slight grit. I'm told that the SDTT can dial in nice slight grit tho too.

On steel, when I use distortion its for a searing rock guitar-like solo, not for slight grit and I like the distortion full on. The tone I'm after is more David Gilmour than Lloyd Green (tho god i do love his tone too). But again I know you guys get that awesome cleaner with just a hair of grit tone from the SDTT too. so tho I am probably using it in a different style and manner than most here, I think its versatile enough to get you where you wanna be. it really does make an ss amp sound like a tube amp to me.

as always your mileage may varry. Dont get me wrong. I'd rather play guitar thru my new home built tweed deluxe any day, but its not appropriate for steel or what I do on stage on guitar, and the evans w/SDTT is and sounds good to me.
Cheers!

Ben, I'm guessing you use the Lead Guitar channel of the SDTT (channel 2) to get your high gain distortion. There's nothing subtle about that channel. I use the Rhythm guitar channel for controllable pick-sensitive grit. It's a versatile unit. I just wish it had separate tone controls for each channel. Seems like an oversight on an otherwise well designed box.

David, I use the normal channel with the gain maxed for rythym guitar. if I need to clean it up any i can back off the volume on my guitar a tad and it cleans up pretty well. I use the second higher gain channel for solos and set the volume on that channel just a tad higher for a boost .so you see unlike some of you, i love the two channel aspect of this pedal..its like if your amp didnt have channel switching before..it does now. If I need end of the world sonic mayhem (aka colossal gain and feedback) I can overdrive the pedal itself by placing a boost in front of it! Thats right...you can overdrive the little tubes inside the pedal! its not the worlds greatest tone tho...think set ending early "The Who" style. i dont do that much anymore these days so I ditched the boost.

For steel i only use the higher gain channel, mostly because the way my pedal board is set up I can only access the bypass switch for the effect while seated at the steel so its one channel or the other and I go for the higher gain because its more of a ripping lap steel sound I'm after when i want distorted steel. I can control the amount of gain somewhat by backing off the volume pedal, but generally its pretty hot. I dont have a good enough right hand yet to be effective with pick sensitive gain on the steel. Im lucky if that pick hits the intended string at all. Im a hack.

the thing sure is versatile if a hard rocker like myself finds it as usable as you bluesier cats do.
Ive had a couple metalhead friends try out and buy the higher gain one, I think its called the Mayhem, and they've been blown away by it. I imagine the newBlues version with lower gain is equally good too.

Yeah, the metal dudes seem to like the Mayhem, and mostly seem to whine about the TT Classic as being not aggressive enough. It is strongly distorted, but still pretty smooth. Definitely not an aggressive metal tone. I imagine some EQ to scoop out the mids could help this out, if one were really hell-bent for metal.

I'm still looking to find a TT Blues to try out. I guess I'll see if there are any at the Philly guitar show this weekend.

yup, Mayhem for metal tones, TTC for classic rock tones, and im guessing the Blue for ...well, bluesy tones.

so i wonder if the blues version gives you a more tweedish crunch than the smooth sort of marshally drive the TTC is giving at high gain settings? It cant juts be a TTC with less gain, otherwise why bother, its gotta be voiced differntly somehow.

For more straight country double duty gigs my SHo Bud Dual channel with an Altec works real good for Tele/steel. Sounds surprisingly good with a tele and it's solid state.

For loud double duty rock/Americana gigs my Vibrosonic works good. For quiet gigs my Deluxe Reverb works good. I use a Holy Grail Reverb in the dry channel for steel. That will change soon. I'm going to have spring reverb in both channels soon(can't live without it!)

Dave

Many good suggestions here.

I like a good powerful tube amp with two dedicated separate channels. Such as a Fender Twin Reverb, Dual Showman Reverb, Vibroverb, etc...

If you didn't like the Nashville 400 then you might not like the Vegas 400 either although it has the two channels. Peavey also made the Rhythm Master 400 that was 4 channels. Anyone know of one for sale??? I'd like another one.

If you use pedals for your distorted/overdiven tones, then these high powered clean amps should be fine. If you want the amp to overdrive, you should go with a small amp (30 tube watts or less) for your guitar and a larger amp (100 tube or 200 solid state watts) for your steel.

I've been trying for years to find the perfect amp that "does it all" and I don't think it exists. Unless I have it custom built, I'll never be happy, LOL. Anyone know of a 4 channel Twin??

I heard a 10 watt amp yesterday that blew away everything I have ever heard!!! Great for guitar but its not for steel.

Michael T.

Dave - I had Ken Fox go thru my Showman Reverb and add spring reverb to the "Normal" channel. Ken did a few other mods and the amp sounds wonderful now. The Normal channel is now set-up for steel (slight tone tweak). I assume something similar can be done to the Normal channel of a Deluxe Reverb.

All you guys using a Session 400....can you please post your settings when using your Tele? MUCH appreciated!!!

saw this post and thought of something i had seen/heard in the last few days...check out some of the junior brown youtubes...great tone on both necks on his guitsteel...and i think it is a fender twin in the background...pretty sweet tones coming out on this one..looks to be jbls also...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecQQ6cXV ... re=related

How does anyone feel about putting a PSG through a fender deluxe reverb or a princeton? I think I am leaning toward the Deluxe Reverb because of the two separate channels. I am concerned that a Twin would be too much amp for me to get that overdriven tube sound on my six-string.

Yeah, a Twin is way too loud for most guitar gigs these days (when you can mike a small amp). But a Princeton, and probably a Deluxe, will likely not have enough clean headroom for pedal steel (although they might be fine for studio work). That's the dilemma. Other than using two amps, one solution is to use a big clean amp for steel, and use stomp boxes to get distortion for guitar. Another solution is to use a big amp for steel, but one that will distort some at the very top, and use an attenuator to cut the volume for guitar.

put 50 Tele pickers on the same rig and you will get 50 different outcomes.

for example, there is no such thing as "what settings is Ray Flacke Using". Ray Flacke's sound is a result of his execution.

If your amp works for you, great, but that does not mean it works for anyone else, and that's the fact of the matter.

Sorry to pop the bubble but there's a reason many players are turning to the EL84 amps for there single coil guitars and Telecasters, there's a reason the Dr Z's and the Vox AC series amps are in demand. One Nashville 400 can do the job for some, but it is never going to push air like an EL84 , 6V6 or 6L6 amp.

If your particular style works with a Nashville 400 then you are golden, if your execution and style of playing requires something different, then it won't. It really is that easy.

The Twin is still, after all these decades, the best overall compromise solution to a pickin' Tele boy (or girl) and a Steel.

happy thursday !

t

PS, I have a 66 Push Pull and a Session 400 but I don't sound anything like Buddy Why is that ?

Always a bit of a compromise with one amp. If I had roadies I would bring 3 amps! Still, the Vibrosonic gets her done pretty good for both.

How does anyone feel about putting a PSG through a fender deluxe reverb or a princeton?

That's how I started - I used a cold-biased Deluxe Reverb with a few tricks, into a white-frame EV SRO speaker. It sounded wonderful at a reasonable volume, but couldn't keep up with a normal-volume drummer and give me enough headroom to sound right (to me) in a typical club gig. It depends on what you want to sound like and how loud you need to be. Wonderful for an acoustic-based band with minimalist or no drummer. Past that, no dice for me.

All you guys using a Session 400....can you please post your settings when using your Tele? MUCH appreciated!!!

Same amp in smaller box - LTD 400. For jazz guitar, pretty flat, maybe cut the treble/presence a bit, of course I'm cutting the guitar tone control some too. For anything else, it's too bloody loud and ice-picky where I want to run it at, at least on, let's say, the back pickup of a Tele. I put a Pod (using Deluxe Reverb emulation) in front and run it pretty flat - maybe cut the mids a bit with the shift between 5 and 7. It sounds pretty amazing - the LTD 400 gives bottom end like nobody's business, but the Pod softens the whole thing.

put 50 Tele pickers on the same rig and you will get 50 different outcomes.

Similarly - ask 50 double-duty guitar/steel pickers what's the best way to deal with this problem, you'll likely get 25 or 30 different answers. About the only one that routinely comes up multiple times is the Twin Reverb or its equivalent - Dual Showman Reverb, Vibrosonic Reverb, and so on. For me, unless I want to be strictly clean, that's too loud for most guitar applications unless I use a modeler, the SDTTC, or something like that in front.

This topic comes up so often now - no doubt due to the presence of many newer steel players who do serious double-duty on guitar - that I think it belongs in Dave Van Allen's "Canonical List of Steel Guitar Forum Topics". Here's a link to that list (but not the original post): http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... c&start=25

There can be no universal answer to this question, any more than there can be a universal answer to questions like, "What is the best guitar/steel-guitar/amp/volume-pedal/...?". There will be groups of people who agree, but many distinct groups.

David Doggett wrote:Yeah, a Twin is way too loud for most guitar gigs these days (when you can mike a small amp). But a Princeton, and probably a Deluxe, will likely not have enough clean headroom for pedal steel (although they might be fine for studio work). That's the dilemma. Other than using two amps, one solution is to use a big clean amp for steel, and use stomp boxes to get distortion for guitar. Another solution is to use a big amp for steel, but one that will distort some at the very top, and use an attenuator to cut the volume for guitar.

So a Deluxe won't be enough headroom even if I mic it? Please forgive my ignorance.

I think a Deluxe can work if miked, especially with a JBL or something similar.

So a Deluxe won't be enough headroom even if I mic it? Please forgive my ignorance.

It depends entirely on how loud the band is and what you do with the mic'd signal from the Deluxe.

If I'm playing with what I'd call a "normally loud" band - club date, electric instruments, and "normally loud drummer - I can't get a Deluxe Reverb to give me enough clean juice unless my stage sound is somehow amplified. I just can't hear myself with this rig without some stage-volume assistance unless I push the amp past my desired pedal steel distortion threshold.

There's no problem with the front-of-house - I've played loud, loud guitar gigs with a Champ or Princeton on a large stage by running my mic'd guitar signal through the house sound - both fronts and monitors. But for a typical club gig in my world, there aren't enough monitor mixes or monitor juice to rely on that. Monitors are primarily for vocals and acoustic instruments and I'm expected to be able to hear my own amp without further assistance.

The other option is to have a second clean amp to re-amplify the Deluxe signal - but now we're talking about two amps, aren't we? I might as well bring a second amp for pedal steel - it isn't a big deal to bring a NV 112 or LTD 400.

YMMV - I don't see how you'll know what will work without trying it in your situation.

What Dave said. With a loud band, you can mike a Deluxe, but for me it simply won't have enough stage volume for clean playing pedal steel. Now you can set up a Deluxe to play cold and clean, and you can beef up the transformer. That can boost the volume quite a bit. But it still may fall short, and I have to wonder if you aren't making it less useful for guitar. There's no getting around the fact that guitar and pedal steel have radically different amp requirements for most people. There is always a minority, who don't want clean for pedal steel, or who don't mind the sound of guitar through a super-clean solid-state steel amp. But most people want very opposite things from guitar and steel amps.

Hello,

I double on a lot of gigs these days, and have just accepted that if I want either the tele or my push pull to sound the way I want I have to use an amp dedicated to that purpose, i.e. a Ken Fox-modded NV 400 and a (can't believe it's so old) 10 year old reish Deluxe Reverb. I like how distinct they sound from each other this way, the steel sounds like a steel and the tele sounds like a tele. On small stages, I just put the Deluxe on the NV 400 and have a great time.

I have the biggest magliner they make to carry the stuff around, but I always like my sound on stage and get compliments on my playing and tone after gig for whatever that's worth.

Thanks for reading my post.

Gerald

I am a big fan of the Deluxe for guitar and sitting around the house I tell myself, yeah, this'll be
aplenty for steel on a moderate volume gig. But as soon as the band kicks in, it's all gone. I've never
been happy with the Deluxe on a steel gig but one time when I played with a super quiet band (no drums)
in a small (80 seat) club.

I saw Dave Harmonson over the weekend at an outdoor gig and he sounded great playing his G and L and his Sho Bud through a Vibrosonic!

Here's what I've been using lately:
http://www.fender.com/products//search. ... 2277000000

Has two channels and also a twin emulation feature. The overdrive channel sounds pretty decent for tele stuff, as far as modelers go it is pretty good. Also, it is SUPER light.