off chord

[Edward Meisse]

Starting off from the I of a diatonic major scale,
the triad built on the II will always be a minor triad.McUtsi

In reading through the thread I have been thinking that the reason it's called the off chord is because it's not actually in the key in question. The supertonic chord is, in fact, a ii and not a II. In my experience, this off chord has always actually been a II7. That is, the V7 of the V7. But the "off" chord is kind of a funny thing to call it, I think.

[Bo Legg]

Here is a list of a few country music off chords:

In theory the off chords are divided up into three groups.

The UNMAJORED the UNMINORED and the DOMINATRIX.

Then you have your subgroups which are the:

AUGDIMINISHED and SUSPENDERED 4THS.

Then of course for good harmony bring in three or four MINERS with a 5TH.

[Bo Borland]

I've never heard anything called an "off chord".
In this case it is a 2 or II chord.

On the bandstand I have been told to not play "that chord" , because we don't know it.

Michael Johnstone is right on here and it would probably be best to learn the correct musical terms so that you can communicate in the same language as mucicians do.

my 2 pesos

[Bobby Burns]

I think that Micheal and I are in agreement about it being the musical ability and knowledge gained from experience being the important part. Of course it would be best if every musician learned to communicate verbally as well, but unfortunately, that is not the case. Some musically gifted folks just won't have the interest or patience to learn theory. Some of these folks tend to come up with their own terms and theories, which could be an entertaining study in itself. I think that these guys understand a lot more "theory" than they sometimes realize, or admit. In some circles it is assumed to be more authentic to play as it sounds or feels, instead of playing something that you studied. Most of these sorts know plenty of theory, they just don't talk publicly about it. To them it sounds cool to talk about "off chords".

[Dick Sexton]

Mr. Legg, you be to funny.

[Jay Jessup]

This discussion reminds me of a small steel show I attended once where I helped my friend Gary Lee out by playing bass on his part of the show because he had some reservations about the staff bass player being able to follow him. In a conversation later that day with that bass player (who is a nice guy and good country bass player by the way)he referred to anything not 1,4,5 as a passing chord and said he had a theory about passing chords----he passed right over them!! and he did!

[Donny Hinson]

"Off chord"...one that don't fit!

Reminds me of an old story about Hank Williams Sr. singing "Cold, Cold Heart". When one of the band members added a couple of minor chords in the song, Hank scolded him, yelling "I wrote the damn song, and there ain't no minors in it!".

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Well, if folks don't know what a II cord is, then they'd surely never play lots of songs, such as "Borrowed Angel" and a whole lot more.

I would always say, (if it was a song nobody had done with me before) listen up, for the accidental, that comes in.

Hell, I had to tell them that. I could have called the cord out, but not in Theory. I didn't know much about theory at all, other than cord progression, etc.

Most of the time, whomever I was playing for, nailed it dead on.

As I've said, now I find it interesting, finding out what it was I was playing all those years. Don

[Charles Davidson]

I have heard that term my whole picking life,Wish I had a buck every time someone may sit in with the band and say,guys the OFF CHORD in this song is B7th,A minor,etc,most of the time you can tell when it appears,not a big deal. DYKBC.

[Mark van Allen]

In my experience the chordal drama varies with the type and background of the players involved. Many of the indie-rock or songwriter bands I play with seem to just memorize the chords and progressions, even the ones they write. I'm not sure some of them have much of an idea about theory. On the other hand, there are a number of bands here that really know what they're doing, and are a true joy to play with.

Some years back I recorded and played with a songwriter who tuned her guitar to a different set of intervals for each song, and just moved her fingers around until it sounded right. Her tunes were quite beautiful, and contained some really rich chord extensions. Not knowing that didn't change things for her...

Many of the country bands I've sat in with over the years have used the "out chord" description to me, often referring to a 2 major, but just as often to a flat seven or even a 3 minor. I'm amused that they assume I won't have any idea of what a chord might be, if it's outside the I, IV, V.
In bands I've played with for some time, I'll find myself describing a tune and ask, "Do you know the number system?" "Oh yeah, 1,4,5, I know that." And I'll mention the song has a 5 minor chord, to receive a totally blank stare. There is a lot of limited theory application going on out there.

I'm not the fastest, cleanest, or "most nashvilley" steel player, but I have a very good ear, and can sit in with almost any kind of band and sound pretty much as if I know all the tunes. I attribute that skill entirely to an understanding of music theory, and applying the number system and theory to the sounds and cues inherent in the music as it goes down. (Michael Johnstone's "5000 gigs" concept, although with study and application I think you could knock it back to 500 )

One of my favorite experiences with this facet of playing was on my very first night in Atlanta, I had heard that local hot shot Jerry Fagan needed a steel player and went out to sit in with his band. He just loved me after the band's opening set, hired me on the spot, and grinned like a fool during the cover tunes he sang... but got angrier and angrier as we played more of his originals. When I asked him what was wrong he went on a tirade about how his songs weren't "the run-of-the-mill basic I IV V $%@*, and people have to learn my songs, I have to teach 'em how to play these..."
I said, "So you're telling me it's ticking you off that I can play your tunes without making obvious mistakes?" As ridiculous as it sounds, that's what it was.

Other than that kind of scenario, I can't think of a better thing a steeler could do for their playing than learn bandstand theory (the construction and theory behind the types of tunes you'll be playing) and practice playing by ear to CDs and with bands.

Then the "out chords" will mostly all become "in".

[Michael Johnstone]

Other than that kind of scenario, I can't think of a better thing a steeler could do for their playing than learn bandstand theory (the construction and theory behind the types of tunes you'll be playing) and practice playing by ear to CDs and with bands.

Then the "out chords" will mostly all become "in".

Well said. That's the stuff you learn by playing with guys who are more advanced than you - on the bandstand.

[Edward Meisse]

Other than that kind of scenario, I can't think of a better thing a steeler could do for their playing than learn bandstand theory (the construction and theory behind the types of tunes you'll be playing) and practice playing by ear to CDs and with bands.

Then the "out chords" will mostly all become "in".

Well said. That's the stuff you learn by playing with guys who are more advanced than you - on the bandstand.

It's still very easy for me to find such people.

[b0b]

The off chord is the chord in a 4-chord song that isn't the 1, 4 or 5. The off chord is often only used in one place in the progression. There are a lot of 4-chord country songs that fit this pattern, and a lot of amateur musicians who use this terminology.

It's good to know proper theory, but it's most important to understand what people are trying to say, whether it's the technically correct terminology or not.

Consider "Tennessee Waltz" in C. When the guitar-playing singer says "The off chord is E" at an amateur jam session, everyone knows what she means and we will all go to the E. If she says "there's a 3 major in the bridge", there's a good chance that someone will miss the chord.

[Bobby Burns]

B0b, you summed up what I was trying to say way better than I did. Thanks

[Mark van Allen]

Very well put, b0b, and true to the ideal of "bandstand smarts" we hope to promote.

It's good to know proper theory, but it's most important to understand what people are trying to say, whether it's the technically correct terminology or not.

I've seen a lot of unnecessary tension and conflict created by a band member who has to make sure everyone else recognizes his superior theoretical savvy. Sometimes when he's wrong!

Caveat: watch out if it's the bass player calling the key and changes... for some reason they have more of a propensity than other musicians for naming the "key" by the first chord they come in on, which is often the 5 or 4.
An almost secondary rule could read, "If the bass player says 'Key of E, the out chord is a C'... you're probably gonna actually be in B"

[Marty DuBois]

Calvin,
The 2 chord can be a minor or a major... depends on what the song is, such as a 1,2,5 song or a 1,2,4,5 song for example.

Hey James,

I think you're right that the 2 chord can be either minor or major. Minor and major 2 chords work (i.e. sound good)for different reasons. The minor 2 chord works because the 2,3 and 6 chords built from any major scale are minor. However, the major 2 chord works because it's the 5 chord of the 5 chord in the original scale. For example, in the key of C major, the 2 chord will be a D minor. However,the 5 chord in C major is G major and the 5 chord in G major is D major. So a D major chord will sound good in a C major chord progression. If memory serves, the theoretical concept is "sub-dominance" and is notated by: V/V; read "five-of-five". Just my 2 cents worth........

Marty

[James Morehead]

Marty, Off the top of my head, a song like "Heart Over Mind" by Ray Price reminds me of a 2 major chord, but then, maybe I'm not hearing it right, as I've never seen the sheet music before.

[Brint Hannay]

Whoever provided the chart Calvin provided assumed the most likely "off" chord was 2 major--to explain the "off" chord in B, they said "C#--9th fret, no pedals".

In fact, in my experience, 2 major is far more common in older traditional country songs than any other "off" chord, including 2 minor. I play occasionally with an old school country singer at least half of whose repertoire seems to consist of 1-4-5 songs with 2 major in them. (Heart Over Mind, Hey Good Lookin', Always Late, There Stands the Glass, etc.)

[James Morehead]

Amen, Brint.

[Marty DuBois]

.........2 major is far more common in older traditional country songs than any other "off" chord, including 2 minor.

Brint,

Perhaps I'm being a bit too theoretical but, I would really be interested to know how many of those 2 majors in these older songs you're familar with are the 5 chords of the 5 chord in the origial progression/key. If you've got a spare minute sometime could you give it some thought and post the results? Thanks!

Marty

[Brint Hannay]

From a strictly theoretical standpoint, all of them!

From a bandstand communication viewpoint, I feel "V of V" is an unnecessary and undesirable complication, even assuming everyone on the bandstand understands that concept. (While others' experiences regarding performance contexts may vary, my "career" has involved a great deal of playing without charts or rehearsal, including, often, calling out the chords, verbally or by finger signals, on the fly. So if someone calls out "five of five!", there's going to be that first fraction of a second where hearers will react to "five", and then have to adjust when they hear "of five". And I suppose one could devise a finger signal sequence for "5 of 5", but the same problem would apply, probably more so.)

[James Morehead]

Perhaps I'm being a bit too theoretical but, I would really be interested to know how many of those 2 majors in these older songs you're familar with are the 5 chords of the 5 chord in the origial progression/key. If you've got a spare minute sometime could you give it some thought and post the results? Thanks!

Marty

How many? who knows. To me, your explanation becomes confusing. Are you refering to the 5 chord becoming the 1 chord for the chorus? the Song "Fool such as I" Hank Snow comes to mind, for example, if I am getting your point, Marty. in the key of C, for instance, is in the chorus of this song, the chorus ends up with G/D/G7. But to me, it's easier to say there is a 2 chord in the chorus, vs. theres a 5 chord of the 5 chord in the chorus. But I'm probably way lost and missed your point?

[James Morehead]

I was posting as Brint was.

[Marty DuBois]

Brint,
Thanks;you've answered my question, which was strictly a theoretical one. I wasn't really concerned with bandstand communication.

James,

As I said to Brint, my interest here is strickly theoretical. It appears that the concept of subdominance (the use of the so called 5 of 5 chord) has been liberally used in the construction of older country songs. That is, the use of a 2 major chord in the progression. All I was getting at was, in somewhat technical terms perhaps, why a D major chord will sound good in a 1-4-5 chord progression in the key of C, when strickly speaking the 2 chord built from the C major scale, or any major scale for that matter, is necessarily minor. Sorry if I've caused any confusion...

Marty

[James Morehead]

Hey Marty, You have not caused any confusion, none that can't be brought to rest with a little clarification.

There is an interesting thought, how a 2 major "works" in these old country songs. I'd venture my opinion, it is the melody line that makes it "legle". Just my country boy, un-edicated opinion.