The Steel Guitar Forum

I love this discussion because I think about it quite a bit. I'm 57, been playing guitar since I was 13 but only playing PSG a couple of months.
Here's what I think. I have no idea which is harder because when I learned guitar I also leaned music at the same time plus there was no internet, cassetes, cd's, dvd's, amazing slow downer...I didn't know you could tune down to Eb or certainly, do an alternate tuning. So I learned a lot slower but I practiced a lot.
I think I got a playable sound out of a PSG a lot sooner. Chords are easier...like mentioned above...no fingering changes but I also understand chords now...but not when I was 13. Right hand is a real challenge on the PSG... blocking a real art... takes a lot. Pedal timing crucial...knees...well jees what can I say there...LOL
So, one day at a time I take it and try to improve. I believe that talent is 99% persistence for me anyway!
Phil

I tend to side with Gary Preston and Phil Lachaga
Gary, I love your analogy "No other instrument can make so much music and fill the gaps like pedal steel."
Pedal timing...knees...from Phil..love it!

What other instrument has the player playing with both hands, both feet and both knees(moving back and forth and up&down)? And all these body parts have to be coordinated to the highest degree
There is no other instrument in the world that presents these challenges. I think we should admit it: Pedal Steel is the most difficult and challenging instrument to learn.

Interesting thread
I think its all relative to what you do with it
I taught guitar for many years and spent most of my time teaching students that there was value in learning more than basic open and power chords.Mastering open chords etc is different to mastering the guitar.It may take 1 lesson to learn a basic 3 chord song but it may take a lifetime to learn how to phrase improvise and the technique of a great player.
Likewise its easy enough to learn to play simple melody in one position on steel but not many of us will ever put in the time or effort it takes to play like a Buddy E etc.
I watched a guy making a beautiful melody with a gum leaf on tv the other night is that less hard to do.
I agree that the learning curve may be harder to begin with cause theres more motor functions going similar to hammond organ or drums with steel but it takes the same dedication to be a master of any instrument

Earnest Bovine wrote:I think fiddle & violin are much harder than steel guitar.

I also agree. I spent 2 years trying to play fiddle and finally gave up. And this was after I played the mandolin with the same fingering.

I think the pedal steel is the most complicated, and therefore the hardest instrument to understand, but not the hardest to play.

The hardest part of learning to play is to learn to "think steel." A player named Paul Hillel once said that learning how to play is like rolling a boulder over a mountain. The hard part comes first, but then at some point, all you have to do is give it a shove and it rolls by itself. That point is when the light comes on in your head and it all suddenly makes sense.

I read some where that it takes about 10,000 practice hours to master anything so that would be almost 14 years putting in 2 hours of serious practice per day. I have to agree about the fiddle to some degree I started on clarinet at 7 and shortly after learning to read music picked up the guitar, sax, piano, bass guitar, drums, mandolin, banjo and pedal steel in that order and was able to quickly play them within a couple of hours or days I'd be playing songs and sounding decent it was almost like after learning to read and having a sense of timing things came quickly but the fiddle (I still got one laying around) would bring me back to the very beginning as a child struggling to learn and play. I thought knowing how to read having good timing and knowing the mandolin neck the fiddle would be a walk in the park boy was I wrong.

At times the PSG can be an enigma.
Very simple, yet very complex.
When I learned to play guitar I was 13. Had all the time in the world. I started with PSG at age 56, and have limited time & attention available. I'll never have 40 + years to invest in developing my skills. From that aspect it IS the hardest !
I can emulate Clapton, et al, .... but I'll never come close to Z.Beck or B.Emmons. But, I can enjoy trying!!
Rick

Alan said-

As has been said, one of the problems of any sort of steel guitar is that you don't have the leeway that you have when pushing a string against a fret. You have to be accurate with the bar.

It occurred to me how it would be interesting to experiment with a fretted pedal steel guitar. A standard 10 string 3 and 4 E9 played horizontally with either a regular bar or with your fingers.

A pedal steel with intonation training wheels.

David Doggett wrote:All instruments are equally difficult to play at the level of the top pros. Their are only so many hours of practice time in a life-time. But some instruments have a shallower (easier) learning curve to get to the point that you can bang out some simple tunes - instruments like guitar, saxophone, and harmonica. Pedal steel is not one of those. Neither are the fretless strings of the violin family. The development of acceptable ear-hand coordination takes time.

Exactly!! .....I disagree w/ saxiohone though. I think it takes a while to get a pleasent sound out of one. Beginner saxophone (especially alto and soprano) sounds can be horrific.

cool thread,,,

On fiddle/violin you have to be accurate with your fingers, not just a single bar, and pinpoint accurate because you're working within a much smaller area,

Actually if you think about it, the surface area of the round bar that contacts the strings is about the same (actually less) as the diameter of the string it's touching. (engineers chime in) - anyway, the finger has a nice big pad to hit the string with. Pinpoint accuracy is more of an issue for steel I think - but both do require extensive practice to get intonation right. I think perhaps muscle-memory helps more on fiddle than steel in hitting the note correctly on the first 'press'. On Steel you have to use a number of clues, the most important of course is your ears! Then you can use tons of wide vibrato like a dobro player and fake it

I play both fiddle and PSG, (dobro, lap steel, guitar, banjo, bass, and a little mando). To me the PSG is prob. the hardest instrument I've had to learn. The combination of choices for chord voicings, the endless quest for tone, coordiation of all limbs, etc. combine to make it a huge challenge.
I too have played guitar for 40+ years and had the benefit of 40+ years of fingerpicking skill from guitar and banjo to bring to the 'table' - which made it less daunting. But still, I learn something new every day and wish I'd started 40 years ago instead of 20.

I've tried to teach a number of folks the PSG and more often than not - 9 out of 10 give up.

chris

I've never tried bagpipes but they have a reputation of being a difficult instrument to play. I wonder if that isn't more from the standpoint of physical exertion rather than complexity. It looks a bit like trying to inflate a punctured basketball by mouth. Aside from the effort of keeping the bladder full of air why would it be any harder to play than a recorder? I don't hear much musical complexity coming out of them. Nothing as intricate as what you hear from a pedal steel. ...or as musical to my ears.

I don't think it is the most difficult to play at a beginners level. But I do think the pedal steel guitar is the most difficult to understand with all the varibles in tunings, copedents and tools to play the instrument!
Is it the only instrument that you can change tunings?

I think,
IMHO,
the "changing tunings" capability of the instrument, is more of a "view" that comes from the minds of experienced steel men. If you played lap steel first, then, of course, you would search for familiarities to bring you home, and expand from. If you played keyboard first, you would look at it as ONE tuning,and what "physical movement" is needed to produce the required notes.
To be "THE FIRST" instrument experience, PSG has many challenges,that can be intimidating.
How many steelers have "picked up" the PSG, as their 1st musical introduction.I think most of us are multi-instrument players, with 1 or 2 of them being our forte.
Rick

I agree with those who claim the fiddle is the most difficult...I've been sawing away for a couple of years, and only now can I scratch out anything which doesn't resemble a strangled cat...I find it interesting that I can play fast stuff pretty decently, but still have a very hard time getting a nice, smooth, mellow sound for a slow tune...the left hand is rough enough, but learning to wield the bow with finesse has been a bear(for me, anyway).

To me, the hardest part of a pedal steel is the right hand.

Greg Gefell wrote:It occurred to me how it would be interesting to experiment with a fretted pedal steel guitar. A standard 10 string 3 and 4 E9 played horizontally with either a regular bar or with your fingers.

A pedal steel with intonation training wheels.

I've thought of that for a long time. For decades I've been building board zithers of various types, the most well-known of which is the mountain dulcimer. I've thought of putting pedals on a mountain dulcimer. Your idea of putting frets on a pedal steel would produce a pedal zither.

Greg Gefell wrote: It occurred to me how it would be interesting to experiment with a fretted pedal steel guitar. A standard 10 string 3 and 4 E9 played horizontally with either a regular bar or with your fingers.

A pedal steel with intonation training wheels.

Gene Fields has made a few of those. I have one of his on a double neck GFI, and before that I put a fret board on my MSA and Sho-Bud. I would suggest that you don't just use a neck from a regular steel guitar because the strings are too close together. Instead, try to find one of Gene's or build a wider one. Also I think the standard E9 or other steel guitar tuning is not ideal for chord playing because steel guitar tunings are optimized for barre-ing across all frets, which is harder on the fretted steel than it is on regular guitar. (...altho Thumbs Carllile did it so it IS possible.) I tried a standard guitar tuning which works well and has the advantage that I know where the notes are.

That's very cool - I'd love to try one sometime. You could probably keep the same neck and tuning if you used a bar with a "fleshy" covering. I can imagine your finger or thumb getting chewed up or sore from barring all the time.

Standard guitar tuning would be nice if I could play it like a standard guitar. It feels awkward for me to fret a guitar when its in my lap.

Hmmm - now how do we attach a changer to a standard electric guitar but have the neck be vertical?

Double reed instruments in general are much harder to play, and the uilleann pipes are supposed to be the hardest of all the double reed instruments.

Richard Gonzales wrote:I don't think it is the most difficult to play at a beginners level. But I do think the pedal steel guitar is the most difficult to understand with all the varibles in tunings, copedents and tools to play the instrument!
Is it the only instrument that you can change tunings?

Don't forget the six string guitar with benders. I have a Tele with benders to raise the B and G , and a low E drop lever. Also, some players use the tuning machines to change the tuning while they are playing. I. E. Junior Brown. ---Jake-

Richard Gonzales wrote:I don't think it is the most difficult to play at a beginners level. But I do think the pedal steel guitar is the most difficult to understand with all the varibles in tunings, copedents and tools to play the instrument!
Is it the only instrument that you can change tunings?

Don't forget the six string guitar with benders. I have a Tele with benders to raise the B and G , and a low E drop lever. Also, some players use the tuning machines to change the tuning while they are playing. I. E. Junior Brown. ---Jake-

Richard Gonzales wrote:I don't think it is the most difficult to play at a beginners level. But I do think the pedal steel guitar is the most difficult to understand with all the varibles in tunings, copedents and tools to play the instrument!
Is it the only instrument that you can change tunings?

Don't forget the six string guitar with benders. I have a Tele with benders to raise the B and G , and a low E drop lever. Also, some players use the tuning machines to change the tuning while they are playing. I. E. Junior Brown. ---Jake-

Rats!!!!! A triple post! Is that a record, b0b?

Since I'm an ex-piper (and onetime Pipe Major, Phoenix Scottish), the first issue of bagpipes lies in the notation of tunes. Looking at it, you see what pipers call the 'shakes': a system of grace notes used in playing the melody.l If you understand grace notes, try to envision two or three (sometimes five or six) 'gracing' almost every melody note.

For all that, learning and capability curves are their own issues. At first, a player must apply the above and learn to finger tunes (and grace notes), using a practice chanter; many students might have as much as six months of this before even touching a stand of pipes (a complete learning experience in itself). The complete learning window (typically from ground zero to where you could march in a performing band) can easily reach a year. Since the acceleration is gradual for many (and almost static at ground zero), there's plenty of room for disillusionment.

On the steel side, the multiplexity (multitasking?) is what gets me. The dynamic and variety of individual moves by both hands and both feet, both solo and in sync with others, and the precision required of each move for desired effect is easily a frustrating or even daunting task. Again, for many, the learning/progress curves could produce a high casualty rate.

Never mind (at least for now) the cost of pipes (which, by the way, is not that distant from steel)! Sets can easily reach the thousands.

PS: Och aye, and dinna ye forrget the kilt and its kit, lad forr 'tis the lassies ye're oot to court: $300-$400 easily to start, and it's awa' from therre!

seldomfed wrote:cool thread,,,

On fiddle/violin you have to be accurate with your fingers, not just a single bar, and pinpoint accurate because you're working within a much smaller area,

Actually if you think about it, the surface area of the round bar that contacts the strings is about the same (actually less) as the diameter of the string it's touching. (engineers chime in) - anyway, the finger has a nice big pad to hit the string with. Pinpoint accuracy is more of an issue for steel I think - but both do require extensive practice to get intonation right. I think perhaps muscle-memory helps more on fiddle than steel in hitting the note correctly on the first 'press'. On Steel you have to use a number of clues, the most important of course is your ears! Then you can use tons of wide vibrato like a dobro player and fake it


chris

A good friend has four daughters who all play the violin, one of them is quite a prodigy. Kids' models come in several sizes, and over the years his several girls periodically have moved up to a larger model. One had an upcoming concert, and I was quite surprised that she had just moved up to a larger violin. I asked about the period of transition, which I supposed would take a number of months. My friend explained that his kids were consistently able to upgrade their instrument and fix intonation issues within a couple of days. He's a neurologist, BTW, and is quite aware of the adaptative abilities of the human body. I was quite astonished until I reflected on all of the guitars and basses (and now steels) I own with different scale lengths, and to the extent I can play an instrument at all, I can switch between ones that vary in size without even thinking about it. Yes, I may have a preference for a certain scale length due to mechanical issues, but I have much more difficulty dealing with the width of a Fender P-Bass neck than any playing adjustment needed due to the scale length of a neck.

So while I am sure that the fiddle is a challenging instrument, I don't think that the need to make micro tuning adjustments is what primarily makes it difficult. Having picked one up once or twice, to me it was the doggone bow that was frustrating, not the LH.

Back to steel--It's pretty easy to play a slow single note melody in tune on a lap steel while looking at the strings. It's the complexity that gets layered on that makes it tough--the use of different grips, muting, slants, reading music, vibrato, etc. And PSG adds even more factors to this equation.

Or perhaps it is difficult to learn how to make tuning adjustments, but once learned, that skill is transferable between instruments.

alright. let's just back up a bit and really look at the question.

is the pedal steel the hardest to learn?

i think the true answer is that it depends on the person. everyone is hard wired differently. some instruments are harder than others as far as difficult aspects to master, but every brain takes in all that information differently.

now, i'm a person that has played many instruments over the years, thereby making not very good at any of them but ok on some.

the pedal steel is very difficult. there is alot going on but the brain compensates.

i took up the fiddle again 3 years ago after giving up in exasperation with the bow and lack of frets. this time i've done much better. i find playing double stop fiddle style to be very similar to the steel.

two years ago i started dabling in simple flutes and whistles. i found that my brain actually comprehends these instruments better. not that i think they are easier.

and lastly, i learned the uilleann pipes over the winter(let me say that i have a long way to go on this one ). a vastly more complex instrument. one that is also slightly different in fingering than flutes or whistles. you also have to separate your arms from your fingers in playing. it is very similar to the steel in that way.

i can say with my own assurance that the pedal steel, the fiddle and the uilleann pipes are the hardest ones i have learned to play. but everyone is different. the flute is hard to master because of the breathing.

so, i think it's impossible to say what instrument is hardest.


BUT i saw a woman playing irish music on the harp, and let me tell you, the grips she was using and the way she was able to pick out the melodies on all those strings got me to thinking that it looked like one hell of a hard instrument to play(and she didn't have foot pedals on hers.....)