Pedal Steel Seat Design

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 24 Feb 2009 9:29 am

I picked up a sho-bud pak-a-seat on my first trip to Nashville in '75 and remember it as the coolest most useful thing I'd gotten. Wore that sucker completely out.
They are heavy, and some are hard to carry, but very convenient. I've heard some negative comments about the sidecar idea, but when I was with Sugarland, they had a real thing about stage focus (from the audience), and it was a real blessing to not have to stand up to change strings, thanks to my Steeler's Choice "cadillac".
I've tried to reign in the weight by going back to a Walker without sidecar, it's still pretty heavy loaded, but holds a lot. Ray has gone above and beyond helping me with height issues as well, stellar service!
I don't use the back when playing, but most definitely between songs. I hurt my back years ago picking up a huge roadcase, and it's a blessing to be able to rest it when sitting.
I'm all for 'em. Thanks, builders!

Ray Walker · Post by **Ray Walker** » 24 Feb 2009 9:44 am

Well Ben...you are one of them guys who knows that he isn't a steel guitar seat man and there's nothing wrong with that either. Since I have at least two models available for less than $175.00 and only one seat I build costs $300 there are a lot more options than you would lead us to believe. Most players are in the saddle for a lot longer than 45 minutes. The only ones I know that are there for that short period of time are on tour. Even studio musicians have more time in the saddle. As far as the pianist....well he or she doesn't have to take the volume pedal...chords...bar...picks..tuner etc. and as far as I know...their equipment is already there and they only have to sit down to it. Would be a bit hard for em to bitch about that.

You mentioned earlier that it won't hold your pedal board...and I have to ask....how do you carry your steel guitar??? Is the case not adequate for your pedal bar???
Finally I would hope that this post doesn't get into a personalized ("my idea's better than yours") type of thing. It is interesting to hear all sides. When I am on a gig I work as well...but between songs I see nothing wrong with an older player like myself to be able to lean back and take a little pressure off. Besides, when you get a bit older you might just find that having everything in the same place helps you to forget you are starting to have a few memory problems.

Hey Jay....Pine is lighter...unfortunately what makes it more expensive is that you would have to plane it down to a lighter thickness (3/4) would defeat the light part. and if you got it already planed.....well there goes that added expense thing again. As far as the molded fiberglass and aluminum reinforcement....well you hit the nail on the head.

Ray Walker

Ray Walker · Post by **Ray Walker** » 24 Feb 2009 9:47 am

We must have been posting at the same time Dave. Thanks for your kind words and thanks for using my seat and Dan's.

Ray

Mike Bowles · Post by **Mike Bowles** » 24 Feb 2009 10:20 am

guys i just bought one of ray walkers ultra lite seats it is very comfortable and very light holds all i need and is sturdy enough for big guys i had him put a back on mine its black to match my steel i never owned a regular seat before so i dont actually know how much they weigh but the ultra lite is all that ray says it is mike

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 24 Feb 2009 10:59 am

Hi Ray.
PedalBOARD wont fit. PedalBAR, rods and legs fit in a $9.99 padded shotgun case. Guitar goes in a Justice split case w/ wheels. Even still I cant lift it, my bandmates have to help me. back injury. I realize most steelers dont use a pedalboard
and can fit their vps in their pac a seats. that doesnt work for me. sorry if I implied my way was better. I didnt mean to do so. it is only better for ME, by all means whatever works for any of YOU, go for it.

My point with the concert pianist was not that he had to haul his stool to the gig. MY point was that it is very common to see a concert pianist sit for hours on a rock hard stool with no padding and no backrest.

again, sorry if I have offended.
as you said Ray, they just arent for me.

Roger Francis · Post by **Roger Francis** » 24 Feb 2009 11:23 am

For me it's realy not the weight of the seat itself but what i have to carry in it, but i don't want to add another piece to carry either to take some of the weight out of the seat.What does the average seat weigh without the side car? maybe 15+ lbs (a guess) how much can you shave off of that (economically) with different materials? I can't give up what i have to carry with me to a gig. even at the age of 58 I think if i can carry my guitar i can carry my seat. MPO

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 24 Feb 2009 11:51 am

When I first started playing I used a folding keyboard bench, but when I got a used pack-a-seat with a steel I bought I never used the keyboard seat because the pack-a-seat also took the place of the bag I was carrying around for pedals, cables, etc. That old pack-a-seat was really heavy, and I ended up leaving it at home and using a drum throne and going back to a bag to carry accessories. This was better than the keyboard seat because that was large and cumbersom, and it was better than the pack-a-seat because that was heavy and larger than I really needed (it had the old iron rod legs). Last year I got a Walker Ultralight seat, and it has been pretty good. It's fairly light and small, not really much larger than a deep brief case. I have seen where people complain about the standard design features of today's seats such as the hinges, the non-adjustable folding legs, etc. These things seem fine to me--it takes about 5 seconds to unfold the legs and cinch them down with the wing nut, and seeing how the guitar's height is already fixed by the pedal rods, having a stationary height makes things simpler and faster for setup and teardown time. The ultra-light seat doesn't hold as much as my old seat, but it's a reasonable space and a good trade off for less size and weight. I use a PedalTrain Jr. pedalboard that has a flight case with extra room in it, so between these two cases (each easily carried in one hand) there is plenty of cargo space. I would like to get a full size seat for home, but the lighter and smaller design is very good and I would expect to see more seats like these coming out. My whole rig, including a heavy D-10 guitar and amp, is two easy trips with a handcart (unless there are stairs, and then the problem is the guitar and the amp).

Ray Walker · Post by **Ray Walker** » 24 Feb 2009 12:33 pm

Hey Ben I am not a bit offended by anything you have said. You simply view things from what works for you. Heck I have a good friend who uses a kitchen chair and will till he dies I suppose....because it's right for him. Roger, you have a very good point. My Ultra Lite seat is only 11 lbs 4 oz. Now guys take a look at all the stuff we stick inside

I know I have more stuff in my seats than is needed and wish I wouldn't do that. The bottom line is that we use our seats like a woman uses her purse (I know I'm gonna get yelled at for this) The bigger it is the more stuff we put in it. I have recently been able to reduce the weight on my Black Beauty model and at worst it can only weigh 2 lbs more than the Ultra lite but it is standard depth and can hold two of everything including two volume pedals. The reason the Ultra Lite was designed the way it was, is because some of the traveling musicians who tour need to fly. This seat was designed to fit into most overhead compartments of a plane. Now I gotta tell ya a story. When I am packing up for a gig, I almost never fold the legs in. Now that's pure lazy. I simply load the thing with all the accessories and close her up and put it in it's spot in the back of the truck. I have a lay down hand truck that I put all my gear on and simply take the seat and sit it on top of my steel. If I need space, I then fold the legs up. I am not different than you guys. I look for shortcuts and lighter equipment too when going out to play. Other than my Ultra Lites and Black Beauty's most steel guitar seats are not that heavy....it's all that we put inside of them. (Roger's comment)

And Bill, I am very sincere when I invite you out to my shop. But if you ever take me up on my offer for goodness sakes...bring your guitar so we can jam a little.

Ray Walker
Walker Seats

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Feb 2009 1:11 pm

Ben

I suppose I should have added that I have absolutely no interest in designing and/or building anything of this nature, and I'm profoundly happy that there are those folks around who do get fulfillment from such pursuits. It isn't that I think they're perfect as they are, but they're a darn sight closer than I could achieve!

Me? I'm happier playing - I'd no more construct my own pack-a-seat than I would make myself another car.

Waisznor · Post by **Waisznor** » 24 Feb 2009 1:40 pm

...bulky? heavy? hard to carry?

http://www.scottdixoninc.com/music/cases.html

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 24 Feb 2009 2:04 pm

Roger Rettig wrote:Ben

I suppose I should have added that I have absolutely no interest in designing and/or building anything of this nature, and I'm profoundly happy that there are those folks around who do get fulfillment from such pursuits. It isn't that I think they're perfect as they are, but they're a darn sight closer than I could achieve!

Me? I'm happier playing - I'd no more construct my own pack-a-seat than I would make myself another car.

im with you Roger. I definetly admire the craftmanship and the drive needed to make these things. From what I have seen the craftsmanship is top notch. They are really beautiful too. and I couldnt come close to making one or improving upon one.

I think the steel seat is kind of an odd concept to me, and I sort of like to poke fun at it. It seems like its maybe something that has continued out of tradition more than out of necessity or practicality, and in that sense, it is a very cool but also very odd item to me. Its seems like an anomally that exists only in our own little world, as i suggested by my examples of other musicians seating arrangements...the concert pianist and the orchestra chairs. anyway, Im sorry for jabbing at em a bit and I know the users of these seats really love em and feel they are useful if not a necessity, as evidenced by the responses in this thread.
Cheers everyone!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Feb 2009 2:13 pm

I showed up for work once at rehearsal for a theatre show and set up my gear. The Music Director came over and saw it all - the special seat, the bag for my picks, the FX rack and my music-stand (I've forgotten what they're called, but they attach to the steel's front legs and are a full-width perspex oblong), and said:

'I want to be a steel-player - they have such cool stuff!!!'

Ben: Your last paragraph is well-taken.

Ray Walker · Post by **Ray Walker** » 24 Feb 2009 3:57 pm

I gotta say.....now that's a way to have a debate. In the end...everyone is allowed to have their own feelings and opinions without anyone being mad at the other. Hey Waisznor...now someone spent some time on that seat and I actually think it's kinda cool looking.
You know Roger, somehow I think you would be good at building seats....Wanna buy a seat business???

You're a great bunch of guys, and I for one appreciate you guys for letting me hang with you a bit on this one. Now let's all go out and steel somethin'

Ray Walker

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Feb 2009 4:01 pm

Here ya go! The new Hatton Cheap Seat. This should satsify all the cheapskates. No bells and whistles here. Light weight and easy to carry. The seat has two levels. Top seat is for regular and tall players. Bottom seat is for all you shorty's. Sorry Dan and Ray. I'm cornering the market on this nitche.
Send $39.95 to:

Hatton Cheap Seats
RFD BR549
Council Bluffs, Arkansas

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 Feb 2009 4:05 pm

Great, Kevin, but that logo needs work....

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 24 Feb 2009 4:06 pm

To Ray Walker,

I hope to be able to come over some day, thanks for the invite. I'll bring a guitar and some cold dopes.

I have no doubt about the quality of your seat, and I am certainly in favor of you making a profit. I am a "Capitolist", and a conservitive. I don't know why price keeps comming up, if I want something, I usually get it, somehow.

I am a minimalist with the pedal steel, and I carry only what I will need. I don't carry every musical "doo-dad" I own when I go out to pick.

I definately do not want to build a seat! However, I have not seen anything that satisfies my needs. Then, I am sure there are many things, (seats), I have not seen as well.

I hope this thread spurs some thought, and maybe something useful will materialize.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Feb 2009 4:09 pm

Bill, see above. Just the ticket.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 24 Feb 2009 4:18 pm

Kevin,

I actually have one of those. I took the wheels off and keep it in the tack room at the barn for kids and some of the ladies who can't reach the stirrups.

Never thought about it for a seat though, probably has some used hay residue on it. Thanks, Bill

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 24 Feb 2009 4:29 pm

I'm having a speaker cabinet for a 12" speaker. The same size as my pack seat. I'll put my cushon and backrest on top and have the best of both worlds.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 24 Feb 2009 4:40 pm

Bill Dobkins wrote:I'm having a speaker cabinet for a 12" speaker. The same size as my pack seat. I'll put my cushon and backrest on top and have the best of both worlds.

Bill, my Marrs ultralight cab is the perfect height and when i first got it I thgouht the exact same thing as you. I was excited. now I wouldnt have to haul ANY seat at all!! Then it occured to me that the sound guy has to mic that speaker and I wouldnt want to a) knock the mic around with my feet or b) loudly break wind right into the mic

that and the marss ultralight cab would blow away in the wind and was not a very stable place to sit.

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 24 Feb 2009 5:50 pm

Ben, the marrs cab from what i understand is made from 1/4 " plywood for weight purpose. I don't think it would be sturdy enough. I want at least 1/2" wood. As for as miking I would think they could mike the Amp itself. As for as breaking wind, haven't you heard of a slip out.

John Drury · Post by **John Drury** » 25 Feb 2009 5:21 am

This is about the lamest post I've seen yet.

I own a Steelers Choice Easy Rider with a back rest, power strip, and power cord built in.

It hold everything I have related to steel, tuner, strings, cords, volume pedal, you name it.

I can't imagine a more comfortable or more useful seat, not to mention it looks great!

I would be proud of the man that could come up with a better design. JMOHO

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 25 Feb 2009 5:59 am

Ben Jones wrote:
Bill Dobkins wrote:I'm having a speaker cabinet for a 12" speaker. The same size as my pack seat. I'll put my cushon and backrest on top and have the best of both worlds.
Bill, my Marrs ultralight cab is the perfect height and when i first got it I thgouht the exact same thing as you. I was excited. now I wouldnt have to haul ANY seat at all!! Then it occured to me that the sound guy has to mic that speaker and I wouldnt want to a) knock the mic around with my feet or b) loudly break wind right into the mic

that and the marss ultralight cab would blow away in the wind and was not a very stable place to sit.

In the event of b) above, the proper procedure is to look at the bass player in total disgust and say "Good God Man" as loud as possible

Tommy Detamore · Post by **Tommy Detamore** » 25 Feb 2009 6:10 am

I used to build seats back in the dark ages, so I know how much work goes into them. I am in the market for a new seat and have been looking around some at the current crop of seats and I don't think they are all that expensive, given the quality and features available. There are some great looking products out there! Just trying to decide which one to go with....

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 Feb 2009 6:49 am

Report from the Repetitive Redundancy Dept. Dept.: It's all about what you need for your particular situation.

I'm a full-time professional picker who sometimes works over 150 dates a year, and always one-nighters. I need a back-rest for those moments I'm not playing but have an opportunity to relax. It's amazing how much energy you expend keeping your back upright all night... like 4 hours. No symphony pianist has to do that, though some barroom guys do. More power to them... some steel players don't have seat backs either and more power to THEM as well. I need a back rest.

I also use some devices that require a powerstrip nearby. Having that strip as part of my seat is not only convenient, it reduces stage clutter and improves the look of the stage.

Having something that looks like it was designed for a professional purpose also improves the look of the stage, IMHO.

The sidecar option is great because during a song, whilst others are singing/picking, you don't distract from their performances by getting up, turning around, etc., so that the audience wonders "what's up with him?"

Then there's the quality aspect that Kevin H. mentions. When a piece of equipment gets set up and torn down every night, then loaded into a band trailer or the belly of a bus, stuff happens... things get dropped, things get stacked on top of other things, impacts take place. Professional gear must have a level of sturdiness not required by all players of the instrument.

I've had numerous Sho~Bud seats that I repaired time and time again; reglued, repadded, and recovered. Since 1988, I've been using Steeler's Choice seats. I still have my first one and it still looks new, except that it's an older design, and it stays in my music room. I also have a regular size with backrest/powerstrip and one with sidecar/backrest/powerstrip.

I was getting my seats torn up with all the travel, roadies, etc., so after great amounts of urging Tom Palmer, he started making D2F covers for Steeler's Choice seats. I now have covers for my two "gigging" seats.

Yes, all of this gear, plus the stuff I put in them, jacks up the weight and the cost. So be it. I realized a few years back I should have chosen piccolo as my instrument, but the die was cast long before that epiphany hit me.

Granted, these seats are not for everybody, but for a great many of us, they are. The upsides outweigh the downsides. Let another in a series of trade-offs, right?

Historical FWIW: In the mid-60's Duane Marrs came up with the "idea" for the Sho~Bud pack-a-seat by looking at his wife's sewing stool. A box with legs is not a new development, y'all.