The Steel Guitar Forum

If it ain't broke, keep fixing it 'til it is.

My favorite music created by the pedal steel guitar is the emotional expression of the player's heart and soul. When that can be accomplished by robotics, I'll get on board... maybe.

Thanks for the thoughts.
JC…with an Italian accent???? (like Richard Walters).
RC…For now, incremental changes…keep the strings, add the electronic pitch bends.
DH…again, we are not on the same page, neither headed in the same direction…your opinions welcomed.
CI…How goes the battle? “too bad”…As country boys, we all hated to see the roads get paved.
RM…I can’t promise no mercury. I suspect we could round up some PSG pickers that would see the present mechanism as you see/saw the bp mechanism.
DS…Tradition is often a very limiting factor, based on the psat and not the future. The thought here is to REPLACE the changer and associated mechanisms with electronic pitch shift…that will open many doors to proceed.
DR…hello preacher…This idea has bugged me for a long time also. I have been watching the Tech world progress and it seems to me that now is a good time to make a start down the road. The sensors are available, the electronic pitch shift is in existence, there are a variety of DSP chips, and the algorithms are starting to come in block form, so code writing is minimized.
GC…Pete was a stomp box person; just count the holes in the front of his PSG. RE pickups…there are several sources of “hexaphonic” pickups. I have several of the magnetic variety, and there are other types available/possible also.
TQ….let’s not go into what those Rebel boys considered illegal, and then did anyway.
BB…no interest here in selling anything, just having fun. RE pitch/timbre/electronic/mechanical…A lot of pickers changing pickups, strings, bodies, etc. still looking for “that” sound…let’s give them some more choices.
PC…hello NB. See above comment on pickups. Yes…capture the sound of whichever PSG you have and shift the spectrum electronically. To electronically control the changer would be a different problem.
BR…no string tension change involved here…capture individual string spectrum and shift it electronically while maintaining the harmonic content from the instrument.
KH…Glad that you have found happiness….enjoy.
JP…You are on…more later.
JC…I will tell you how the Packard auto came into existence…has to do with Ford’s reluctance to improve.
AM…you are from the world where more than 3 chords were needed (whence evolved the common PSG)…me too. The BEAST had E69,A6,B6, their relative minors, aug and dim, AND the opener for the 13 series structures (P3P4P9 and levers. On a followup model I extracted the 13 series into an instrument all by itself…NOW therin are chords, and in a musically logical order/location…charts if you would like including chord location list.
BMW E9…neat…how are things in Sweden?

Now on to the project:

Re market for such a device…I don’t have to worry about that as I am doing this for the same reasons I did the first transistorized tremolo for music instrument amplifiers, the first transistor overdrive = fuzz/distortion, the first multioctave divider, the Zirconia bar, the integrated keyless/gearless changer, not to mention the computer stuff…I did/do these things because they were/are there to be done. Volume manufacturing and merchandising is someone else’s bag.

We will use the same strings and gauges for this go round.

The first pass will allow either mickey mouse tuning ears, or keyless/gearless.

Let’s examine the magnitudes of the pedal & lever forces required…these will determine the pressure gauge and associated implementation..

The highest activation force required that I have found is 20 pounds. The lowest is about 2 pounds. We did not measure this at Jim Palenscar’s shop when we did the 33 PSGs measurments…should have.

What forces are required on the PSG(s) that you have. What do you think is a good high and low? What travel distances do you prefer?...some like hard and quick, some like long and slow. In the proposed system, we will not be limited by the mechanics re force and distance. Setting your force to taste may be possible…but allowing adjustments is usually an invitation to a repair bill.

Offhand, I think a good starting point is 5 pounds, and a 1 to 1+1/2” travel/throw; this way the pressure gauge can be in the 5 pound range, and the activating force can be dialed in (adjusted). It is NOT necessary to have any travel, but yielding to tradition at this point provides some familiarity of function.

Some question exists re the “curve” for the amount of pitch change for the amount of travel. On present PSGs, this is not linear because of the nature of string stretch/string tension per cent, or per halftone. We will not be bound by these mechanical limitations as they won’t be part of the device (after the initial tuning of the open strings).

I already have pitch shift, and about forty other effects, in software, and between the PSG and the power amps but, the pitch shift is not controllable by the pedals and levers. After developing the control voltages with the pedals and levers, we will proceed to that, which is the next step.

For those that may not be familiar with the terminology and acronyms we will provide references for definitions, illustrations, and examples as we go along.

For those that may not be familiar with the terminology and acronyms we will provide references for definitions, illustrations, and examples as we go along. Here is the first set.
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Hello Herb…You and Donny seem to ride the same horse. Would you give up your amplifiers and pickups and go back to just acoustic? Would you give up the machinery under your PSG and do just finger pulls? Would you go back to the acoustic standard with a raised nut? How far back should the modifications have been stopped?

Listed below are some related references.

Some descriptions of pressure transducers and load cells, and the likes:
http://www.sensorland.com/HowPage004.html
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/sit ... 0112699036
http://www.loadstarsensors.com/iloadanalog.html
http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store/c/ ... nsors.aspx
http://www.tekscan.com/flexiforce/flexiforce.html

Some DSP info:
http://www.freescale.com/files/dsp/doc/ ... METRIC.pdf
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/sit ... 0127950E5F
http://www.dsptutor.freeuk.com/
http://www.mathworks.com/products/signa ... talsp_cat1
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~mpthak/c ... torial.pdf

For those that may not be familiar with where DSP has been used, and where it meets the VST and other functions:
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/2915.html
http://www.dsptutor.freeuk.com/jsanalys ... lyser.html
http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm = the FSA that I use mostly.
http://www.spectraplus.com/

And this is the basis of my USB connected software effects rack…any VST module can be added…say Izotope etc.
http://www.audiffex.com/EN/guitar-effec ... c-mac.html

Re the pickup issue…go here, scroll down to multi transducer pickups, and then visit some of the named companies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_(music)

Mr. Ed, I think you are a very interesting character. For a talking horse, that is...

Jim-Yes, Interesting and a Techno Genius. Who knows?..maybe some day.....al.

Ok ED!!!...now i get it, you're trying to send the analog sound through a multi-transducer pickups in seperate digital input then processe it with VST like a pitch shifter and then back out to analog, so by doing it that way all you need is a bridge without the changer...correct?

Pat C.

The Line6 Variax and the Roland VG systems show the potential for digital pitch shift and timbre change, although they don't quite feel/sound right to me yet. I think this is the right time to be developing this concept.

Advantages are many: since pitch changes are done by software, choose the string guage for sound alone; you can "pull" a wound string 5 frets or more, if you want.

Absolutely no cabinet drop or hysterisis.

Much lighter weight, eliminating not only the mechanism, but the metal frame. Choose wood for sound without regard to strength and stiffness.

Knee lever action as easy as you want, so weight not needed for stability.

You want string separation? Give each string a slightly different charactar. Or not, if you don't.

No lubrication, bent fingers, stretched return springs.

Any split is possible; a combination of two pedals/levers can have results impossible on PSG.

A good user interface won't be that hard to design, making it simple and intuitive to set up any copedent you can dream up. Then save it, and design another one, and another. Emulate different pickups, pickup placement or wood.

And lower cost, making PSG affordable to more folks. This would essentially be a nonpedal singleneck with a dozen sensors and a computer, but instantly able to be any PSG you can imagine.

Just don't forget to stop tinkering and play the dang thing, will ya'? javascript:emoticon(':D')

Sounds like y'all have a good thing going there.

When someone records "Four Wheel Drive" on that thing, send me an mp3 attachment in an email

Herb, the Luddite Curmudgeon

ed packard wrote:search the forum for the BEAST and you will be routed to a Photobucket site with photos of the beast and the mechanisms of 33 other PSGs complete with Frequency Spectrum Analyzer traces of their response (sustain etc.).

Ed, could you post the link to your photos again? Searching the forum for "beast" turns up 285 matches. Read into that what you will...

Country music started its death spiral in the late 80's...Pedal steel will inevitably go the same route, as will all the things we know in our "window of time"..Purists will still want the essence of what once was, and techies will always dream of what could be. Galileo's first telescope can still see the moon... It's the same moon that's been with us for for eons..When the techie instrument plays itself for us, gone is the artistic input that can only come from the human hand, and mind. Gone also will be the emotion, as it will be simulated by a machine.(listen to ANY RAP music) Technically...wow, look what my computer can do, FOR ME..(cuz I cant play that jurassic era instrument that you ACTUALLY have to PHYSICALLY play)
Visionaries have historically been ridiculed for their preposterous ideas of what the future may bring in advances in knowledge and technology...personally, I'm sure eventually it may work...mechanically and physically...But...not in my lifetime. Given the state of the economy, I cant see the advancement in technology reaching yours, and/or my bank account in the near future. a 20,000 steel guitar...geez!...gimme 2, and a 9000 terabyte, gazillion gigawatt computer to play it for me....What am i going to do with all these Peavey"s? They SOUND SOOO GOOD!...Oh well...progress...I guess..

Mickey-Your post has presented some interesting and dire thoughts. I know that you love the steel guitar and you hope it will not die and fade away, as we all do..

I don't think the Pedal Steel Guitar will be a dying breed. No Way! When I started in the 30's . It was frustrating for us trying to get decent chords on my little Supro 6 string. So we had to be innovative and creative.In about the 50's builderss were starting to give us pedal guitars, some crude, some not bad.
Then later on we started getting some pretty nice PSG's, Sho-Bud,Emmones,MSA,Fender,Mulllen,ZUM, then along came Carter and all the rest. We now have more builders than ever and they all have waiting lists, some very long.

So I think ,IMO, great things are coming for the Pedal Steel Guitar. More improvements, lighter weight, yet stronger, etc. And maybe there will be a changer, as ED says, that will get any tuning or chord the player wants.

A PLAYER WILL STILL HAVE TO PLAY THE GUITAR, Be creative, innovative and play with Feeling. That will never change!....al.

Michael, I believe these are the topics with the BEAST pics you're looking for.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

I had one of these when it was new in 1983-84.
It had a MIDI out, a 1/4" out , & a built in amp/speaker.
Multiple sounds and a cheesey drum machine too.
It had nylon strings and had to be played with your fingers.
It was interesting and fun to play.

...OMG.....STEEL GUITAR HERO?....OH NO!!!!

I think we are getting off track to what Ed was trying to say at the start.
It seems to me that all he was suggesting, was to use electronics instead of mechanics in the changer chain of the pedal steel guitar. This does not mean that we are to create some robotic monstrosity like the stupidly oversimplified guitar hero.
It simply means that we eliminate pedal rods, pull rods and the like. These will be replaced by small, light electronic sensors, relays, switches. Somewhere in this chain, it reverts back to mechanical when the actual pulling/slackening of the string is performed.

Imagine how this would cut down on weight.

Ever since the 1980's I have wondered how to go about this, but my skills in this department are lacking.

The way I see it is that this is nowhere near robotics or electronic music, but simply a mechanism to make that pedal/KL push smoother and finely adjustable, and more effortless, and to cut down on weight.

I think back to my days running a loader. The levers on the old ones were hard and unyielding to operate all day, with a looong travel. I still have pains in my arms and legs. Then came electronics and the electric over hydraulic. It cut down on operator fatigue by 95%, made things more easily adjustable and at the end of the day guess who was a happy camper?

Mickey, I suppose that the flaps on your jet would be hard to operate without the benefit of electric over hydraulic controls

It certainly is worth looking at.

... and, by the way, a steel guitar version of Guitar Hero might just be the best thing that could happen to steel guitar. Not for the pros and serious players, obviously, but can you imagine what would happen if millions of people were playing ANY version of a steel guitar and digging it? How many tens of thousands would graduate to the real thing?

JC & AM…’nuff dudes…I can’t get my hat on!

MS…thanks to Per Berner who posted the original BEAST shots, you have the Forum location for them. Below is the PHOTOBUCKET location for the 33 PSG study, more on the BEAST, and other PSG info. There are several albums listed on the left margin of the opening page. Since they have added a “comment” function, I should go back and add some more info to each shot….someday.
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/ ... ?start=all

MA…Your list of instruments and “stuff” (see George Carlin) tends to make you a “techie” of some sort…your Lancair has a carbon fiber body…shades of MSA. Say hello to Christine for me when you pick up your new toy.

PC (NB) & RC…You chaps have figured it out and said it better than I did. I tend to get my tongue tangled up in my eye teeth and ca’ see what I am saying.

PB…Again to the rescue…thanks for the help.

BB…nice toy!

BR…the same individual string pickup that will be used for this project can be/is also used for the MIDI function = virtual instruments et al. but without individual string pitch control. Our target is the present steel sounds without the associated changer mechanisms.

JC…great thought…look where Pac Man trained this generation in hand eye coordination, hence of use in the robotics, and other computer using skills.

Back to design. The reason(s) for doing this on the Forum, is that it makes the info and comments public venue = “prior art” in patent terms = it is yours, do what you want with it. The hope is that it stimulates (an in word these days) a few to try thinking/doing something along these lines.

From the list of references above, you can see that there is a lot of devices to choose from at each step. The first step is to replace the pedal rods with pressure/force sensors, but keeping the pedal feel etc. as it is…same for the levers.

The design thought vehicle will be for a 10 string E9 with 3 and 4 = 7 sensors minimum. Each sensor may handle several strings with up to 3 halftones up and three halftones down per string. It would be nice if the control voltage from all the sensors was the same (at this point we don’t care how many halftones are involved). Lets use 3 volts for max pedal/lever throw for thinking purposes. What the 3 volts represents in halftones and direction of pitch shift will be part of the “programming block”.

So, coming from the pedals and levers we will try for one control signal for each pedal and lever, and these will be all the same 3 volts level for max throw. We now have 7 to 10 control voltage signals coming from the sensors to the next block. The nature of these control voltage changes is very slow, but should be very accurate and consistent. Thermal
stability will be a must.
The “block” to which the control voltage signals are routed will decode them into which string gets what amount of halftone change, and which direction of halftone change for the 3 volt max pedal/lever activation. The pitch change will be smooth as the pedal/lever is activated. Physical stops for pedal/lever travel will still be used.

Also going into this block…lets call it the control block, will be the individual string analog signals. In this block we will decide which strings are affected by which activated changes and by how much. In the extreme, it will be here that we cause tuning changes (think E9, B6, A6 etc), as well as what the activated changes do to each/any of the chosen tunings. These tunings may be achieved without retuning the strings. This will probably NOT be part of our first try.

This is a significant number of lines in and out, hence it probably means that this control block is external to the computer to free up computer I/O and processing power.

Next…the control block to computer connection(s).

Right you Are Ed....Ill be very interested in seeing the end result...Ill see Christine in Late March...

For those that might not know about the "dashboard" here is a screen shot of the Intone + setup with a few of the effects shown. Control is via clicking on screen.

Hi Ed,

Here's something interesting and similar to your proposed idea. A 6-string guitar with a computer-actuated pitch changer controlled by a "keyboard" device. No fretting is done, whatsoever. Something similar might be the answer for an electronic tone changer for the pedal steel guitar. Instead of a keyboard the the controller could be the pedals and knee levers. Here's the link to the "Servoelectric Guitar":

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/0 ... uitar.html

keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Glen S...Thanks for the info/reference, I checked it out. Several years ago at a Steel convention/show, there was displayed a system for automatic and continual tuning of the steel via servo motors. Some Forum space has dealt with the concept also.

My object is to eliminate/reduce the mechanics including the changer. The resulting instrument could be just strings, tuner, fixed bridge, and fixed nut. No tension changes on the strings after the initial tune up.

The last couple of days has been spent developing the first pass control and signal flow diagrams for the NO changer mechanisms approach...still looks quite feasible. The weakest link in the chain is my not being up to date on some of the technologies involved.

I won't post the control and signal flow diagrams here; those that may want to follow along at that level of detail can ask for them.

Hmmm, very interesting, Ed.

Are you indicating that just the strings and the body would be the only mechanical aspect of your concept? Where as, the strings could be tuned to a certain open pitch, and be employed as a mechanical tone oscillator? Are you saying those tones would then be electronically manipulated for pitch-change via foot pedal and knee lever actuators?

Ed, you don't have to respond. I know my post is redundant to what you've been saying all along. I'm a little slow this morning... too many margaritas last night has destroyed most of my remaining brain cell.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

GS...that is the hope...the tech exists to do it...how well is to be determined. The electronic pitch shift world in general has been re voice (see vocoders...also whammy bar pedals for guitar)...applying the mathematics of music to the PSG shift problem may yield a useable device.

This could be a very cool thing. It won't replace the real thing any more than electric guitars would replace acoustics...

One thing that would be amazing is the idea to just program pedal and lever setups- this could only lead to creative mayhem and possibly some great music..apologies to Jerry Byrd ("if there was a better way to do it, don't you think I'd have found it already?!?")

What we really need is the development of the digital side for the mechanics, but an all-analog signal path- in other words, still strings, still pickups, still touch sensitive, still non-pitch correcting, but the pedal/lever setup could be assignable to any strings. At the very worst, it would be a time saver...we could still have our analog cake...

I remember the good old days...

When the pedal steel world was all about visionary's brainstorming new gizmos, tunings, and far out mad science. I'm always amazed that the vintage/retro crowd often forgets the original spirit of invention that was there at the beginning for us. We still need that, albeit now we need a bit more scientific method to the madness to keep up with the times.

I've always wanted a way to change KL functions quickly for different musical puposes. It would be so cool to experiment with different counterpoint and harmonic ideas that you just can't do on your present copedent, and then switch back with a click. I do agree that tactile feel is crucial to actually be usable though.

Also I think that one of the biggest things that keeps our instrument out of the more mainstream is that it's getting almost impossible to easily fly with it in commercial airplanes. We don't all have access to private jets. If new technology can lighten our load, then count me in!

Go Ed Go!!!