The Steel Guitar Forum

Don-that is a really well engineered guitar by Excel. But it looks pretty complicated to me.

Larry Bell and Carl Dixon's, E9/B6 tning charts look pretty good for E9/B6 playing. Carl's with the separate cross bar is a good idea so he can lock it when he want or STill have the option of universal with the kneel lever for the Eb's and the C# second string. It has all been worked out so you dont need a D10. However for me I have been playing many tunings in my life, but spent most of my time with E6, as an old guitar player too, it is easier for me.

Charlie - thanks for posting my website and tunings. They are not set in stone, but good for ideas as you say.

Here is the latest E9/E6 universal that I have been fooling around with for the last 3 or 4 years. I dont have a program for charts so bear with me. The explantation on the Chart that Charlie has posted is good for Pedal and knee locations. Hee it is open just like an extended E9, when you throw the lock, bar postions are the same whether in E9 or E6, so you dont have to have a long learning curve.

It is E6 open top down-
[tab/]
F#-D#-G#-E-C#-B-G#-E-C#-B-A-E..E6.

I'll try again, the 5th string goes to B..the 6th str goes to G#...the 7th string goes to F#...the 9th str goes to D. A perfect 12 string E9 with the lock
Lock ............B..G#.F#.....D...........E9....To be continued ..Good night...al [tab]

Carl, sorry, that's a typo, seems like no matter how much I proofread there's always a boo-boo that slips through...
I do raise the 10th string along with 3&6 with the B Pedal. This is crucial, as is the F Lever on string 11 too!
And that RKR is rather stiff so I wouldn't want another change on it.
As per the LOK...I know that some of the previous ones were a little hard to push, then he lengthend the throw and that helped. Now on mine, which is on the Changer side, and the Simulator which Michael Vallandingham purchased is easy as butter and it's pulling 10 strings and activating the two See-saw Levers! I can switch mine effortlessly anytime, just don't push a See-Saw Lever while you're doing it!
I can now once again play "Streets Of Laredo", great fun!
Don E.

Thanks Don.

just don't push a See-Saw Lever while you're doing it!

Yes, I can equate with that. On my electronic switchovers, THAT is one thing that has plagued me from day one. IE: What happens IF you engage a knee lever AND you try to activate the switchover of that knee lever?

I have studied this problem for a very long time. I could cure it electronically, but it would add too much electonics. So I have settled on doing it by a blocking device at EACH switchover, so as to prevent it from happening. I do this by individually "spring loading" each activator, whereby it is prvented from moving the switchover to the opposite position.

c.

You know last year we got a universal with the LOK and two of the see-saw levers that one of my students, Dave Munson bought. It doesn't seem to have the inverted bell cranks but Dave did just recently install a pedulum lever...maybe he'll post some pix too. I'll ask him to comment as he's quite a machinint/fabricator who owns "Fine Art Light" here in St. Louis and does custom lighting for famous people like Paul Simon and even for the Congress of the U.S. as the original paintin of George Washington has Dave's lights on it...
Don E.

Last year I purchased the ultimate 12 string universal that was at the 2007 convention.
I believe it was the 1st one with the see saw option from Excel and was the guitar that inspired Don for his new purchase.



Now comes the rub... Don ordered his new one and is better than mine because he has two see saws and a pendulum lever. Really hacked me off.


Here is my modification to get the pendulum lever to work. I had to move the hex shaft up in order to get the bell cranks inverted. A little machining and now mine is pretty close to Don's hot number.



( I don't know if Don will agree but I think I was the one that convinced him to get rid of his double neck ) right Don?

You see when I first started playing I could not understand why people would play a double neck when a Universal could do the same sounds. Maybe Don just got tired of trying make excuses and realized the student was right.............

Don taught me more in the first two lessons than 20 years with everyone else....

Don when are you going to release your new 12 UNI DVD?

It is amazing that anybody can keep it all straight in their heads! Thanks Don, Dave, Carl et al for raising the "bar"! JP

Well, I've had the new Excel Superb D10 simulator for a few days and I got two words: BAD rear!

This guitar tunes easy, plays easy, pulls smooth on every pedal and knee lever.
I love the action of it, it pulls very evenly over the length of the pull, stops solid and true. It's hard to describe the feel of the pedals on this axe. I have 2 other steels, a Mullen RP and a '75 PP.
The Mullen plays perfectly, but I always thought the pedals were too soft, ie. they were a little lacking in feel under my large heavy feet. The PP has a great pedal feel, stiffer than the Mullen, but it gave you a real idea of where you were in the pull, and felt as is it required the same force to be applied throughout the course of the pull.

This Excel is right in between those two guitars, the pedals are firmer, which I prefer, yet still so buttery smooth and communicative.

I realize all this stuff it totally suject to personal taste, and that these traits can be changed by setting up the guitar for ones personal liking. This guit rocks, right out of the box.

Here are some VERY cool features in case anyone's interested:

1) It has anti-detuning mechanism on it, for pedals A, b and C. The counter action is applied by actually pivoting the tuning key head. It pivots right past the nut, pivoting downward to tighten the strings to counteract cabinet drop. I've tested this with a tuner, and the needle stays pegged straight up as you press any pedal, A,B or C. My other guitars have noticable/audible cabinet drop. Vey cool, you can watch it move as you're playing.

2) To achieve a lower, the changer finger actually slides forward, to raise it still rotates like a regular guit.

3) Fretboard looks to be silk screened aluminun, very classy!

4) then neck is covered in matching mica, which I like, because you can always see the sratched from dust/wiping on the front wall of aluminum necks, and it's hard to polish these out without taking the neck off. Mica that baby, problem solved.

Don or Carl!! are these wooden necks under the mica? or are they aluminum. it's hard to tell.

4) the way the pedal board attached to the front legs is totally cool. the rubber feet are applied to the end of a threaded rod that threads into the bottom of the leg. you simply place the slots in the pedal board into place over the threaded rod and tighten down the rubber foot till it secures the pedak rack in place. it's it's like 4 less pars per side, and the rubber dosen't mung up your legs like metal pedal board attachment schemes.

5) The degree of adjustability of the knee levers is incredible, i'll just say that.

6) the See-Saw knee levers are ingeniously engineered and work great, I'll refrain from trying to explain how they work here.

7) the 25.5 inch scale REALLY tightens up the lows, cured the farting out problem on ALL my amps. the bass strings sound like the frikin liberty bell.


To top it off, this thing it light and small as heck. shipping weight in the case and in a box was 54 lbs.

BAD rear AXE!

Don or Carl!! are these wooden necks under the mica? or are they aluminum. it's hard to tell.

Mike,

On mine they are aluminum necks. However, I would not speculate on others because Mitsuo is making changes all the time.

1) It has anti-detuning mechanism on it, for pedals A, b and C. The counter action is applied by actually pivoting the tuning key head. It pivots right past the nut, pivoting downward to tighten the strings to counteract cabinet drop. I've tested this with a tuner, and the needle stays pegged straight up as you press any pedal, A,B or C. My other guitars have noticable/audible cabinet drop. Vey cool, you can watch it move as you're playing.

This is indeed correct. To see a picture of it. Look at the 2 following photos:




Notice the keyless tuners attached to an aluminum plate. This entire plate and tuners pivots on a pin, that is located just below and just to the left of the nut roller axle.

So when you tune the guitar's open strings, this pivoting plate CAN (if acted upon) counteract for "cabinet drop". Next picture shows HOW it is done:




Notice the 3 brass adjusters just below the first 3 pedal rods. They are in turn connected to a rod, that moves a bell crank located JUST below pedal rod #4. This in turn moves a very small bellcrank which is rodded all the way (and under the crossrods) to a high-in-the air crossrod at the left end plate (as viewed upside down)

This in turn is rodded to another bellcrank that is the connected to the pivoting plate on the UNDER side of the guitar. If you zoom this picture by copying it to your picture file, you can see all of this pretty clearly.

So when you engage say the A pedal, and the 4th string drops in pitch, you can adjust for that drop by turning the brass adjuster connected to the A pedal. Once adjusted, they never need to be adjusted again.

My hat is off to Mitsuo, for such a clever design; to counteract what MOST PSG players complain about. For those that are not bothered by "cabinet drop", simply back off on the brass adjusters and live with the drop.

To achieve a lower, the changer finger actually slides forward, to raise it still rotates like a regular guit.

Again, Mike is correct. Notice the picture below. It is hard to believe, but NOTHING moves to the right of this changer (on lowers) that would allow a "split" screw to be installed to the right of the changer.

But Mitsuo is very clever. So he installed the screws to the Left of the changer! If you look closely, you can see them. One for each string. Neat huh?

Surely, if the cabinet drop is cured by a moving plate (which all the strings are anchored to), it will raise all the strings the same distance, regardless of the fact that some strings exhibit more drop than others.

Wouldn't that mean that some strings end up sharper than they they should be, when the compensator is activated ?

richard burton wrote:Surely, if the cabinet drop is cured by a moving plate (which all the strings are anchored to), it will raise all the strings the same distance, regardless of the fact that some strings exhibit more drop than others.

Wouldn't that mean that some strings end up sharper than they they should be, when the compensator is activated ?

Maybe, but when it "raise all the strings the same distance", it will tend to cause more pitch change in those strings that exhibited more drop. So I expect that it would work well.

Nice one, Earnest

I see it simply, the cabinet drop drops all strings uniformly (it has to it's the superstructure)
then this plate raises all the strings uniformly.

Any differences are a result of the string gauge and it's placement across the top if the instrument, thus these small differences are corrected individually by the same factors that imparted them in the first place.
I think i should stop there, as I think that explains it.

It's ingeniously simple.

Carl or Don,
My guitar has a few changer fingers that look to be in a pre-lowered position. here's a pic. Strings 4 and 11. This doesn't seem to effect it's playing.

It doesn't really change when the lok lever in engaged.

Is this normal?

Hi Carl,
I'll try your suggestions.
I thought about the return spring, and also that it may be bound up on one of the pulls. I'll check it out this evening.
Thanks for the help!

OK, I'm stumped. What keeps the finger from lowering when in the neutral position?

That's my problem, the tension of the string when tuned to pitch, with all pulls backed off, pulls the finger into the lowered position.

What counteracts the string pull? I need to tighten that up.

Thanks.

So to put it another way, it's too easy for the string tension to pull the finget to a lowered position.

As I think about this more...

I can push the finger back into the unlowered position. If you losen the string all the way, the finger returns to the correct position. The fingers seem to have no obstruction.

The culprit is that the string tension pulls the finger into the lowered position (not all the way, there is still some lower travel left) when you tune it up to pitch.

something is not keeping the finger in the unlowered position.

Does anyone have a diagram or sketch of this changer?

Whatever blocks the finger from lowering against the string tension does not keep the finger from doing so.

Man, tis is tough, I'm gonna try to sketch the mechanism on this guitar so see if I can shed some light.


All the while, the guitar plays beautifully... it's mostly cosmetic, but it bugs me that I can't figure it out. PArt of the fun of a new guitar.


Carl, I appreciate your help. thanks.

Spring 1 in the pic keeps the lower fingers all stopped and aligned (I circled the area)

spring 2 up against the cabinet threads thru the upper(near the string) portion of the finger.

It seems that this is redundant, ie pulling the finger to a lowered position when the string tension would do this also..
Should I loosen this spring on the effected strings?

Of course it's not, it's there for a reason, I'm just not understanding it.

Gee, I don't know, I never had good enough hearing to detect much less than 3 or 4 cents...and yes, it seems that all of the guitars I've ever had have had some degree of cabinet drop. Sho~Bud, Dekley, Emmons Original, Marlen Push-Pull, Zumsteel, GFI and Excel.
But, just the like Emmons LeGrande III, if you engauge the anti-detuning device and it adjusts the open "dropping" strings, it does not seem to sharpen the "pedal'd" notes. I checked my Excel and it did drop less than 3 or 4 cents, then I engaged the device until strings 1 & 7 remained stable, checked the Pedal Tuned notes and they were the same. And I have not have to adjust the LOK notes since it came out of the box in tune from Japan to California, then ground freight to St. Louis, picked up in a van and taken back and forth from the Convention to Scotty's, then to a gig and now at my house...still in tune.
As per the See-saw levers being swithed while being held...if it's in B6 and either lever is engaged and you un-lok it once you release the lever it will change over. But, if it is not Lok'd and you attempt to Lok it while holding either lever it will not go from E9 to B6. I have to let them off first.
In the meantime I'll keep on Steelin'!
Don E.