The Steel Guitar Forum

Williams keyless tuners

I had a GFI keyless, it sounded great, and it was a little easier to change the strings than the Carter I now own. My GFI had an intermittent problem with cabinet drop that I never figured out. Sometimes it had none, other times way too much, there was a definite problem with that particular guitar. GFI guitars are extremely well designed and I would definitely try another.
Now I own a Carter,negligible cabinet drop, tremendous tone, and lightweight. It takes a little longer to change strings, I do miss that from the GFI. Tonewise, they both sounded great to me. JP

I have owned Sierra and Lamar keyless guitars. The only real advantages I experienced were smaller cabinet size and less weight. I like the way they look just fine and I could play either design comfortably. You need tools for tuning either one.
The overall quality of construction, tone and feel of the guitar is what I'm interested in. Keyhead design is way down the list.

I got pretty good ears, but I don't think I could pass a blindfold test from behind 2 identical instruments with the keyhead being the only difference. Maybe some of you could.

Congratulations on your new axe Terry and I'm sure you'll like the keyless feature just fine

Thanks for the picture, Olli.

Looking at the photo, it appears as if the strings go through the tuning fingers, rather than over the top. Is that right?

Stu Schulman wrote:b0b could you tell me what the differences would be from the Williams [keyless head] compared to the GFI?Is one easier to use,or in your opinion work better?Stu

I've never owned a GFI, so I'm not qualified to say. Both work well, from all reports.

I'm still wondering if I am seeing right in the photo. Do the strings on the Williams keyless go through a hole in the face of the tuning "finger" to an anchor screw in the back of it?

On the GFI the string goes over the top of the tuning "finger", with a second contact point behind the takeoff point, and down to the anchor screw.

Donny Hinson wrote:I've only played a couple of keyless steels, and the differences (as Bob said) didn't seem to be really significant. The only thing that is significant (to me) is the number of top pros who really don't care for them. Keyless steels have been out for about 40 years now, and these guys make their entire living playing. With all the supposed "advantages" of a keyless, it's really strange that more of these players don't prefer them.

(I can't believe that looks are very important to a player most people seldom even see.)

For the 98% of us that aren't top-tier players, it's plain that either will get the job done. IMHO, the "weakest link" is almost always between the seat and the steel, anyway!

Amen Donny!! I have owned and played both. Keyless IMO return better than keyed. But, we all compensate with the bar for the difference, which is minor anyway. I have recorded with both types of guitars. On playback, I could not tell the sound difference just by listening. Most of the problem is the loose nut between the steel and the amplifier.


Brint, The Williams changer has a hole through it and the ball end rests against the hole. There is no nut on the changer finger. (if that is what you are asking).

On the keyless end, the string goes over the roller, through a hole in the block, then over the top and wraps around a screw which is tightened to secure the string. After this is done, wiggle the string end back and forth and the string will break off right at the screw.

Hope this helps

I can only recall one of my PSG heroes playing a keyless that I thought sounded good, it was Buddy playing a sierra.

That being said, I think they look rediculous. JMOHO

Pic of a Kline keyless. So you have to carry a wrench? Not a big deal! The same wrench tunes your strings and adjusts your pulls. You have to carry your bar and your picks too. Also, no nippers are needed. The excess strings easily snap off.

Brint Hannay wrote:I'm still wondering if I am seeing right in the photo. Do the strings on the Williams keyless go through a hole in the face of the tuning "finger" to an anchor screw in the back of it?

Yes, that is correct.

John Hugey also played a Kline for a while.

The piano is keyless, the Celtic harp (as well as the triple-strung and others) are keyless, the harpsichord is keyless, the hammered dulcimer is keyless, both the bowed and plucked psaltery are keyless, the Song Of The Wood door chimes are keyless, and most of the aforementioned have been around for centuries. Are they ugly also? I think not!!!
PRR
I failed to mention zithers!

Keyless steels don`t look rediculous (sic) , they are beautifully symmetrical !

Olli - Well-said, my friend!!!
PRR

I bought a Williams crossover and have loved keykess every since. I feel like it gives go a nice compact steel. If you look to the left you will see I liked it enough to convert my MSA to keyless and losing about 5 1/2 inches. This is my favorite guitar and I have a Mullen in the closet.
As probably mentioned before if you take a guitar and convert that guitar to keyless you will have to adjust all your pulls because they will have shorter travel. I also changed a Emmons S-10 to keyless with a Bela tunner several years ago. I only changed it back to sell it.
I have several MSA's And a Mullen and still play the keyless the most. Everyone has a preference and I am not here to say one is better than the other but for me I prefer keyless.

CORRECTION:
I just had a chance to re-examine the Williams keyless steel that I stated had wobbly "keys". The guitar is just poorly set up. All ten keys should be aligned very closely together, like in Olli's picture at the top of this page, then they keep each other from wiggling around. This Williams is so out of whack that the keys don't even touch each other, so they do wobble, but once the strings and keys are returned to normal condition, there would be no wobble. My apologies to the finely built Williams guitar, and builder Bill Rudolph!
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I've always thought keyless was a great idea, but for me it turns out not so good:

On my Mullen I have a zero pedal, and it and the 1st pedal are both under the tuning keys.

On a Williams keyless I tried playing, with the tuning key part of the body missing, the zero pedal would have to be MUCH further to the right, and all other pedals further right from there. So for me, the FIT isn't right, and I've had to rule them out, sadly.

I also don't like the idea of fumbling with a wrench to tune open strings, I think GFI has big knurled knobs which is a great solution.

I've examined closely 2 Williams keyless. The design of the older one, probably a model 400, was not as good and the metal post holding the strings could wobble around, making it hard to stay in tune.

A quite recent model 600 had a different design, and the keyless tuners were rock solid, so I'm glad to see that problem has been remedied.

Gene Fields is the World Authority on keyless guitars from his days with Fender to the present on his GFI keyless guitars. Jody.

HI, John, could you elaborate on your contention that

"The design of the older one, probably a model 400, was not as good and the metal post holding the strings could wobble around, making it hard to stay in tune."

Are the posts you are talking about the set screws at the keyless tuner end? Have you played both models and experiencenced the Williams 400 model being out of tune? I'm curious, since I have played both the 400 model and a 600 models and find that they both stay in tune nicely. Many thanks, steve t

I own both 400 and 600 models and the keyless tuners are identical. I guess John must be referring to an older, pre-400 design.

You're probably right, Olli, I was just guessing at the vintage! I was surprised to see the tuning instability, considering the high regard forumites have for the brand.

I have a Williams U-12. I think it's a 400 version. It's about 10-12 years old. Yup, it's keyless.

It's a great axe. It's very compact. You really have to squeeze into it. Any unconcious knee shift(s) will definitely be a BOO-BOO. But that's part of the effortlessness of actuation.

Before the Williams, I had a S-B D-10 Pro III (Keyed).

What I miss, is I think the S-B just seemed to ring out and sustain much longer than the Williams.

The S-B had a few tuning problems returning to pitch, and was a big guitar for my size. I couldn't make a lot of standard pedal/knee combos because of the huge size of the D-10. ie. my body size didn't work well with the pedal/knee alignment such as it was when I bought the guitar. I never investigated or bothered to have it altered (had no money).

I guess what I'm trying to get across, is that the extra 6 or so inches of 'guitar' on a KEYED guitar, and the consequential longer string length, does indeed add to a longer vibration, and thus sustain.IMO.

Doesn't it just make sense, physics-wise? The longer something is, the more inherant it will be to vibrate longer. Some argue over this, but I have played both, and I have to say the S-B seemed to ring out and sustain much longer than the Williams.
FWIW

I had both a keyed D-10 Williams and a keyless U-12,same brand, for about a year so I got to compare keyless/keyed versions of essentially similar instruments. As far as sustain goes there was little if any difference,same goes for overall tone.Only real difference was that the pedal feel was different, the other being a 12 string with more pulls/pedal. So, from my experience other factors are more important to the tone and sustain than whether the guitar is keyed or keyless.
I`ve had Emmonses and Buds with less sustain than the keyless Williams guitars I play now. JMO

Regarding sustain, I don't think that it's really a keyed vs. keyless issue. I noticed no difference in sustain between my Williams D-10X (keyed) and my current Williams D-12X (keyless). Both have the 400 Series changer. The sustain is very long.

I've never owned a Pro III for comparison.

I found significant differences in sustain between models of Sierra. The keyless Sierra Session and keyed Sierra lap steel both have longer sustain than the keyless Crown or the older keyed Olympic.

I appreciate all the info and posts on the Keyless steel guitars.

Well, I had played my custom made 14 string BMI since 1984. The late Zane Beck and Don Fritsche designed and made it back then. I still have that steel and plan to never part with it. However, I recieved my first keyless steel, it's a BMI Beck Musical Instrument custom design and craftsmanship by Don Fritsche.

I have had it about a week now and honestly at first glance thought man I don't think I am going to like it, but after playing it and studying it over, I really do like it.

The sound is exceptional and plays easy. I will try to post some pictures of it here in a few days. We are planning on having it to display at the BMI booth St. Louis, MO.

Thanks and may GOD bless!


Terry Wood

Well,

Maybe the years have clouded my judgement. When I was thinking sustain, I actually was thinking in reference to CHIMES . I seem to play less chimes today, than I did years ago with the Sho-Bud. Maybe this is the problem.

I may have lost my chiming skills over the years by not playing/practicing them as I used to.

So, in other words, once again, it's not the guitar or amp, but the PLAYER.

I'm sure you guys are more right about it than I am. You obviously play more now, than I do.[/i]