The Steel Guitar Forum

I agree with Dave. It's actually refreshing that there's another person as annoyed as me.

I think the main reason there's a problem is because players never practice with a metronome and they let booze or adrenaline control their feel. I rarely get a full 4 beats. More like abour 3.98 beats if I'm lucky. It makes the night go by slow and it becomes a lot of work. I've given up saying anything. Either they have it or they don't. Sometimes I follow the feel and sometimes I buck it. Sometimes I just watch a girl dancing and follow her tempo. It can be a slow torturious profession sometimes. I try to think positive things like "How can I improve my musicianship right now".

In a perfect situation, with great players, my mind is constantly listening to each player and I'm asking myself "Is my feel fitting in with him?". Then I switch players and I do the same thing. Once I find out that I'm groovin', I go to a very peaceful frame of mind where I let my creativity take over and I remain confident and relaxed and that's where I'm really playing best and enjoying myself.

The very strange thing about this business is that when you think you are playing great, nobody will notice. When you think you are terrible, people will compliment you.

Also, if I record these frustrating performances, I may get a different perspective and realize it's frustrating to me and not that important to the general public. I have to tell myself, "if the public's happy, I'm happy."

W Franco wrote:How can you feel comfortable and confident if you don't know what you are playing. How could you possibly
think of playing on the beat behind, etc if you don't even know what you are going to play. Believe me, playing with your head and then with your hands takes practice but you will reap rewards you have never dreamed of.
Who you are playing with certainly makes a difference. Like said above. Play with some players that know what they are doing and your playing will be different than what it will be with hackers.

How can I feel confortable and confident without knowing what I am playing? Easy as falling off a log... I just do it.
I beleive there have been many great musicians over the years that have not "known" what they were playing. Most of my favorite guitarists...but I will offer up Hendrix as my example. I am sure there are equivalents in the psg world. I think Jaydee Maness mentioned he didnt read music, write tab, or know much about theory in general. Wow, my favorite guitarist and my favorite pedal steel player all in one thread

How could I possibly think about playing behind the beat if I dont know what I am going to play? again Easy, I DONT think about playing behind the beat and I rarely have any idea what I am going to play...hell, even when i am playing it I dont think "I am playing this and it is a mxylodian scale" or "I am gonna play this next Dom Maj7 chord behind the beat". I play. sometimes I play behind the beat sometimes on, soometimes ahead...it depends on the feel and feel is something I dont actively THINK about but rather something I... um...FEEL.

I am sure there are rewards to be reaped , its just not how I play and not how a few of my absolute favorite musicians have done it either. I understand and respect both ways of doing it, and I guess if I had a choice I would know everything about theory and be analyzing everything I am playing while I play it...but Im not. More power to those that can and do but i dont think its required by any means. Its just another way of ding it..and one that I am not inclined naturaly towards.

I won't play behind or ahead of the beat if there's a chance that the band will take it as a cue to slow down or speed up.

If you're aware of where the beat is and confident that your own playing won't inadvertently change it, then playing ahead or behind is a great way to add emotion to your part. The key is to be aware of what you're doing.

Ben said,

hell, even when i am playing it I dont think "I am playing this and it is a mxylodian scale" or "I am gonna play this next Dom Maj7 chord behind the beat

"Mixolydian scale" is really just a term that describes a particular sound. Terms that like that and other parts of music theory are useful when you're talking and learning about music. However, I doubt than anyone really has time to think through all that stuff in the heat of battle. But I'd bet that you know and play the sound of a mixolydian scale on a regular basis. It's easy to get wrapped up in theory or even intimidated by it, but at the end of the day it's just sound.

I've played with lots of other players whose tempo and time is all over the map. After years of being frustrated by it, I finally decided that it's really up to me to lead by example and set a solid rhythm around the groove in my head. I can only hope that they listen and try to respond. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, but in either case I just have to do whatever I can do to make it groove as best as I can and not really worry about them. In contrast, when I play with someone that listens and is aware of rhythm, it's like heaven.

Rick Hulett wrote:Ben said,

hell, even when i am playing it I dont think "I am playing this and it is a mxylodian scale" or "I am gonna play this next Dom Maj7 chord behind the beat

"Mixolydian scale" is really just a term that describes a particular sound. Terms that like that and other parts of music theory are useful when you're talking and learning about music. However, I doubt than anyone really has time to think through all that stuff in the heat of battle. .

This was what I had formerly assumed as well...people knew these things, understood them, but didnt actually actively think about them WHILE they were playing or in the heat of battle as you said Rick. BUT during a couple previous discussions on "the blues scale" or "blues boxes" Ive had several people insist that they are actively thinking about scales, intervals, note and chord names, etc etc WHILE playing.

Thats an impressive and very foreign skill to me.

If they really and truly do that, then they have way more available brain cells than me (maybe thanks to the Lost Years). I might occasionally think of something like that as just a fleeting thought, but it's sure not a regular thing or anything I'd try to do. When I play I'm just trying to sing through my instrument. To me theory's good to help me figure how to play what I sing in my head, but it sure doesn't help me sing. And when it's time to sing, it's time to stop thinking about theory. If you haven't internalized it by then, it's too late.

Rick, thats exaclty how it works for me too. We are on the same page.

I do think about theroy and I am trying to learn more about it, and truth be told...the psg is a wonderful teacher of theory in its own way. but i cannot think about it while playing.

I'd be interested to hear more from others who are able to think about this stuff during the heat of battle and allow it to shape their playing. specifics, examples, stories..im interested.
Like I said, that ability is impressive to me.

FWIW

Willie Nelson songs. He plays and sings waaay behind the beat. That is part of his style. But it sure makes it hard to play a fill behind the singer.

R2

I'm sure you've seen the interview with Willie where he said that that laid back style came from being loaded and coming in at the last possible minute because he was trying to remember the words.

Ron, I think you've hit it. Take a page from willies book and roll a big one and I you'll have no trouble playing way behind the beat.

Plenty of food for thought here in this thread.

I've got the most time logged in my musical career playing rock drums. I've found the best feel for me as a drummer is to play the downbeats dead on the beat on the base drum, and to lay back both the right hand when on the hi-hat playing 8ths or 1/4s and lay back the back beat on 2 and 4 on the snare. This is playing the back beat "in the pocket". This doesn't work for swing or shuffles, though, just straight or broken 8ths.

The interpretation of just playing a simple boom/chick pattern with regard to each limb relative to the pulse is a lot of what makes each drummer sound different. It's really not that easy to do. I've found that sometimes things that "feel" cool to me as I do them really don't, and things that feel awkward sound cool. Go figure.

Anyway, the bass player has to be on the same page as the drummer, or the drummers "feel" won't work. I worked for years with a bass player who ALWAYS played behind me. As I progessed and really figured out what was going on, I had to leave. I work with a bass player now who "allows" me to play in the pocket.

My point about all this is that playing on either side of the pulse is dependent on the other players, they've got to "let you". And as someone else mentioned, when the right timing combo happens magic can happen.

As to my steel timing, the mind hears it but the fingers don't quite do it as tight to my minds soundtrack as I know it will in the future.

Brian McGaughey wrote: Anyway, the bass player has to be on the same page as the drummer, or the drummers "feel" won't work. I worked for years with a bass player who ALWAYS played behind me. As I progessed and really figured out what was going on, I had to leave. I work with a bass player now who "allows" me to play in the pocket.

So, a question from the bass player side: Do you want the bass player to be dead on with your bass drum, or even a little ahead of that? Was the guy you had a problem with playing with your snare, or even behind that?

Ben Jones wrote:BUT during a couple previous discussions on "the blues scale" or "blues boxes" Ive had several people insist that they are actively thinking about scales, intervals, note and chord names, etc etc WHILE playing.

I'll do that on 6-string sometimes. When I think "mixolydian" what I see is a pattern on the finger board, so the thought "mixolydian" is very, very fast and the rest just kinda pops out. I also frequently think about the chord names (if I've got the tune memorized) because it helps me get out of playing the same things over and over. It expands the possibilities of what I can play dramatically, i.e. different inversions of the chord, fragments, etc.

On steel, I'm nowhere near good enough to think about anything much more complicated than "oh my god, where can I find the next chord!"

As for the question of where on the beat to play, I naturally tend to play ahead of the beat. On 6-string I usually want the bass and drums to lock, either on the beat or slightly behind, and to pay me no attention because I will mercilessly mess with the time, treating it like taffy, pushing and pulling on it. I love both Willie Nelson and Lyle Lovett for this approach.

Carl Morris wrote: So, a question from the bass player side: Do you want the bass player to be dead on with your bass drum, or even a little ahead of that? Was the guy you had a problem with playing with your snare, or even behind that?

I would say the bassist playing right with the bass drum is best, as that's the center line. Upon further thought of my experience with the late bassist, () it wasn't just that he was late in note placement but he never drove, he always rode, if that makes sense. If I tried to lay back and not drive, it slowed down. It was like a tug-a-war, and neither of us sounded good.

It shouldn't be the drummers sole responsibility to drive the band, IMO. The drummer and bassist do that as a team, as a rhythm section. Easy to talk about...

Anybody can play the way they want. I have personally talked to JD quite a bit about his thoughts on music. If you don't think he knows anything you're wrong. We had a great discussion in Phoenix about putting space in your playing. I will tell you, he is very sharp.
I played for years on the E-9 neck. I knew enough music to get by, but like most players I didn't have a plan. I also do not have another 20 years to learn the C-6 neck. The songs usually are not 3 chord songs on that neck either. So I decided I needed to study some music thoery if I wanted to make any headway in this lifetime. Some of the things to study is where to play on the beat. Some people don't even know about that let alone do it! Not something I always concentrate on. But I always practice with BIAB. Doesn't hurt your timing. But you know, my plan is getting me where I want to go faster and I am gaining more time to get a feel because I know where I am going is going to sound right. It doesn't happen over night! Music is suppose to be fun and I'm having more fun than I have ever had. It is very individual as to how anyone approaches the instrument they obviously love to play. I am just saying that for me the second time around on the C-6 neck has been the way to go.

The bass player said there isn't enough room on the stage to play behind the drummer.

What always bothers me is the audience clapping out of time. When they start doing that it's difficult to play with, before or after the beat. The worst is where they clap on the on beat instead of the off beat. I don't understand how anyone can appreciate blues, bluegrass, rock and roll, or traditional jazz, without realizing it's SYNCOPATED.

The Beach Boys stopped playing during one concert because the audience was clapping out of time. Brian Wilson then instructed the audience on syncopation and got the clapping started correctly, and then the band came back in.